Sizing .223 Brass in an XL650

[KrakenFan69]

Hi guys,

I'm having some issues running .223 on an XL 650. I do all my sizing on one tool head then seating on another. I am using a Lee .223 die and have it cranked all the way to the shell plate. They won't seem to drop completely into my Dillon case gauge. It seems as thought the shoulder needs pushed back just a hair more but I have no more adjustment. What am I missing? I was doing good with the RCBS small base die but I ran a piece with no lube in and got the case stuck. Then destroyed the shell plate in one location trying to remove it. I topped this feat with destroying the decapping pin removing the case. My life truly is a warning to others...

Thanks,

Kraken Fan #69

[Gunners Mate]

Read your Lee Die instructions they may not be suitable for a progressive press. Redding dies are the same the instructions for redding say do not use on a progressive press. I learned this the hardway after doing 700 rnds of grendel brass with Redding dies on my dillon same problem as your brass. Also depending on when your Lee dies were made, Older dies are shorter than the new dies. Personnaly I would by the black Box RCBS dies and be done with it

[Pipefitter]

A couple of phone calls (one to RCBS and another to Dillon) should get you replacement parts at no charge. In the meantime you could try grinding or machining about 1/32" off of the bottom of the lee sizing die to get a bit more adjustment on the die.

[KrakenFan69]

I sent Dillon an email yesterday about the issue. I'm sure they will be in touch soon. The website says allow a few days for them to respond and to call if it's urgent. I'm not in that big of a panic.

Thanks,

Kraken Fan #69

[jmorris]

I have had the problem with Lee dies before and just ground a bit off the mouth so I could run them down a bit more. There is a chamfer at the mouth anyway so you shouldn't hurt anything. Obviously you will want to remove the decapping pin/expander first.

Before you start it might be worth removing the expander/decapping pin and size a case with the die ran all the way down and see if that case gauges. If it does and won't with the expander installed, you should lube inside the neck and see how that works.

[Iron Whittler]

When I do large batches of 223, I use my xl650 to size and deprime as one step. I use a set of Dillon 223 carbide dies. All cases must be lubed even with the carbide die. After sizeing, cases are ss pin tumbled to clean and remove all case lube. Makes for shiny brass. Next, check for length trim if needed. At this point, brass can be loaded or stored for future use. If I can be of help, give me a shout. Dennis

[country gent]

I agree with taking some off the bottom of the die around .010 should be plenty. This is done easiest with a lathe and carbide tool. Other wise sand paper on a flt surface and work by hand. This will allow for the die to adjust slightly lower. One thing to try is a fired case in your gage if it goes easily measure it and your sized case, this will give an idea how much needs to be removed.

Redding dies have one of the smaller mouth radiouses there hence the warning against progressive use. I use a redding 223 full length bushing die in my 650 and it does a great job.

Another place to check is the play in the 650s shell plate, it may be "tipping" a little causing the problem sizing. A loose or improperly tightened center bolt may cause this.

[runfiverun]

see post #5
I have had to do this to other makers dies too.

[KrakenFan69]

I have had the problem with Lee dies before and just ground a bit off the mouth so I could run them down a bit more. There is a chamfer at the mouth anyway so you shouldn't hurt anything. Obviously you will want to remove the decapping pin/expander first.

Before you start it might be worth removing the expander/decapping pin and size a case with the die ran all the way down and see if that case gauges. If it does and won't with the expander installed, you should lube inside the neck and see how that works.

I think the lube residue is part of my issue. I cleaned the die and the case gauge and they are working much better now. Meanwhile I somehow managed to bugger the index spring that wraps around the main column of the press. Good thing I had the spare parts kit. Of course I had it completely apart before I figured this out...Cleaned and lubed it all while I was in there too.

Kraken Fan #69

[EDG]

You need to find a way to stop the cascade of mistakes since one seems to lead you to make another error.
If you slow down the press operation the cases will have more time to creep when sized and take on the internal dimensions of the die.
If you run a wham bam sizing process as fast as possible you will never get uniform sizing results.
There is a guy on you tube that does his sizing in a Lee progressive using 3 different sizing dies to insure the case is properly and fully sized.
After the Lee press he primes, charges the cases and seats the bullets in a 650 Dillon....
No matter how fast you are, you cannot miss fast enough to win a gun fight.

I think the lube residue is part of my issue. I cleaned the die and the case gauge and they are working much better now. Meanwhile I somehow managed to bugger the index spring that wraps around the main column of the press. Good thing I had the spare parts kit. Of course I had it completely apart before I figured this out...Cleaned and lubed it all while I was in there too.

Kraken Fan #69

[jmorris]

If you run a wham bam sizing process as fast as possible you will never get uniform sizing results.

I disagree, if that were the case factory ammunition would be all over the place as it is made much faster than anyone can operate a manual press.

If you do not do it correctly, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, it's still not going to be right.

[M-Tecs]

Take your neck expanding button off or get the Redding carbide button. Steel buttons with not enough lub on the inside of the neck can pull the shoulder forward.

[KrakenFan69]

You need to find a way to stop the cascade of mistakes since one seems to lead you to make another error.
If you slow down the press operation the cases will have more time to creep when sized and take on the internal dimensions of the die.
If you run a wham bam sizing process as fast as possible you will never get uniform sizing results.
There is a guy on you tube that does his sizing in a Lee progressive using 3 different sizing dies to insure the case is properly and fully sized.
After the Lee press he primes, charges the cases and seats the bullets in a 650 Dillon....
No matter how fast you are, you cannot miss fast enough to win a gun fight.

I actually don't run the press that fast. Especially with .223. Just applied force when the press was telling me to stop and investigate why the extra pressure was happening.

Kraken Fan #69

[rockrat]

To me there is a bit of flex in the shell plate. I run the die down till it hits the shellplate and then maybe 1/32 to 1/16th of a turn farther.

[EDG]

The original poster and practically none of the people here run REAL ammo factories.

If you ever bothered to measure factory ammo and brass you will find that it DOES vary in length from the head to the datum circle. You can find that variation in a single box of factory ammo. Take out a box of factory ammo and measure all 20 rounds if you don't believe me. If you measure enough of your own manually sized brass you will find the causes for the variations. You will find that speed of sizing, dwell at the end of the stroke and the amount of lube used also affects sizing of the cases. Size a case twice and guess what the should will move back a little more. But if you size a case enough times it eventually quits moving. That means your case sizing operation is not moving the shoulder 100% of the distance it possibly can each time you size a case.

In the mean time if you continue a wham bam resizing operation you will continue to produce brass that varies. That is the nature of manufacturing processes that are not well controlled. If your wham bam processes stay within the SAAMI requirements your ammo will still go bang. But that does not mean it does not vary. That is what manufacturing tolerances on drawings are for. But don't kid yourself your case sizing operations do produce variation.
I take it you run a wham bam case sizing operation that you have never thoroughly checked? Resizing dies ran with a sloppy process produce head to shoulder length variations. There is nothing wrong with the dies, it is the variations in the process of using the dies. Check with bench rest shooters. They find these variations in the same die, the same set up and the same brass. All that changes is the temper of the brass as the cases are loaded over and over.

Now you are going to tell us that you check the temper of each and every case before you load it? No???
So you anneal each and every case first? No??? Well let's see the process control charts that tell us your processes are under control?
If you do it slow enough to measure your results you will find some of the process variations. If you run the process fast and never look for variation you may never find it.

I disagree, if that were the case factory ammunition would be all over the place as it is made much faster than anyone can operate a manual press.



If you do not do it correctly, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, it's still not going to be right.

[M-Tecs]

My RCBS case mikes are one of my useful tools.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-223-remington

I also have Mo's and Hornady gauges but I prefer the RCBS.

Between my 650's and 1050's I have loaded about 150,000 223. Maybe 15k for competition and the rest for prairie dogs.

Normally I size as a separate operation like you. When I first started I used Redding dies until I wore then out. Switched to Dillon carbide but with either one I hold .0015 headspace. I still use the Redding carbide neck expander.

I normally anneal every 3rd or 4th loading.

[country gent]

The ammo companies dies arnt the same as ours are either. And those bigger presses have a built in dwell at the top dead center and bottom dead center of the stroke while the crank swings across center. Usually around 10* each side of center where there is little to no movement of the tooling. On our presses the dwell is a manual thing that needs to be thought about to be done., not a part of the presses operation.

[jmorris]

The original poster and practically none of the people here run REAL ammo factories.

If you ever bothered to measure factory ammo and brass you will find that it DOES vary in length from the head to the datum circle. You can find that variation in a single box of factory ammo. Take out a box of factory ammo and measure all 20 rounds if you don't believe me. If you measure enough of your own manually sized brass you will find the causes for the variations. You will find that speed of sizing, dwell at the end of the stroke and the amount of lube used also affects sizing of the cases. Size a case twice and guess what the should will move back a little more. But if you size a case enough times it eventually quits moving. That means your case sizing operation is not moving the shoulder 100% of the distance it possibly can each time you size a case.

In the mean time if you continue a wham bam resizing operation you will continue to produce brass that varies. That is the nature of manufacturing processes that are not well controlled. If your wham bam processes stay within the SAAMI requirements your ammo will still go bang. But that does not mean it does not vary. That is what manufacturing tolerances on drawings are for. But don't kid yourself your case sizing operations do produce variation.
I take it you run a wham bam case sizing operation that you have never thoroughly checked? Resizing dies ran with a sloppy process produce head to shoulder length variations. There is nothing wrong with the dies, it is the variations in the process of using the dies. Check with bench rest shooters. They find these variations in the same die, the same set up and the same brass. All that changes is the temper of the brass as the cases are loaded over and over.

Now you are going to tell us that you check the temper of each and every case before you load it? No???
So you anneal each and every case first? No??? Well let's see the process control charts that tell us your processes are under control?
If you do it slow enough to measure your results you will find some of the process variations. If you run the process fast and never look for variation you may never find it.

No one ever said that there is no room for QC checks, that is done along the way at each and every step of the process. I do anneal every rifle case and they all run through the trim die after sizing if they need it or not. It takes more time to stop am measure every case for OAL than it does just to run them through the process.

That said there are people that load on single stage presses much slower that do none of that. It's a fact that there are many single stage loaders that strive to get ammunition that shoots as accurate as say Federal Gold Match that is made at the rate of thousands of an hour.

I'll stand by the fact that something is done quickly is not necessarily inferior to something done slowly.

[quasi]

use Dillon's Die's with Dillon's presses.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't even fool with loading 223 with anything but a small base sizing die. Even if its range pickup that I plan to use in a bolt gun. If theres any disadvantage it would only be in a slight loss of case life but 223 brass is so cheap it isn't worth worrying about. All my brass is small base sized and trimmed after every loading if its being shot in an Ar15 and that goes for 308 brass used in my ar10 too. Silly not to small base size. It hurts nothing and increases the chance that your ammo will chamber and go bang EVERY TIME.