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Thread: A question on the 1903 Springfield..............

  1. #1
    Boolit Master



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    A question on the 1903 Springfield..............

    First of all, I've collected, shot, studied rifles for over sixty years now.......but I can't seem to find the answer to a simple question.

    We all know the 1903 Springfield is a Mauser influenced rifle. The U.S. government paid the Mauser brothers something like $200,000 back in 1901 in order to use many of the Mauser patented designs for a new rifle to replace the aging Krag. That's good........the '98 Mauser is a wonderfully strong, simple design......but why on earth did we adopt a two piece striker, connected by a link??

    This, to me, is a major "oops" as it complicates and otherwise straightforward design. Was it to avoid paying more money? Someone's idea of an "improvement"?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I don't know the answer to your question however I believe that this design is a holdover from the Krag.

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    Boolit Master



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    I've read and heard it said that the 2 piece firing pin was a mistake and a weakness of the rifle. But I have yet to see or hear any evidence of 2 piece failures. I would rather have a one piece firing pin on my rifles but that is more because of tradition and preference than design knowledge. I have spares for each of my 1903 and 1903A3 rifles "just in case". my experience anyway, james

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I have owned shot and handled around 200 plus 03, 03-a1 and 03-a3. both in matches and hunting. in full military trim and sporterized some good some very bubba. never have I seen a broken firing pin. I have seen one broken firing pin from a krag and that one was dropped on the floor.

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    There were several changes in the 03 from the KAR98. None were an improvement. That said, the rifle works fine through WW I, II and Nam'. A 2 piece pin does allow field fixes w/o pulling the striker.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master



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    Well, okay.......Eldon's reply does make some sense I guess. It's just that the one piece Mauser striker simply makes more sense to me engineering wise and has to be a little less expensive to machine.

    The "funnel breeching" is another quirk.....leaves about 1/10 inch of unsupported case, yet the Mauser feeds reliably with its flat face breech. Again, seems to work okay and any reported blown case heads are usually traced to soft brass (Hatcher's Notebook).

    Nevertheless the 1903 is still a fine, accurate rifle and will always be one of my favorites!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    im sure it was some brain childs idea that it would make broken pins easier to fix in the field. having said that, just about anyone with 2 hands can change one in a mauser in a minute or two. never hear of many broken pins in a mauser though......

  8. #8
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    There were several changes in the 03 from the KAR98. None were an improvement. That said, the rifle works fine through WW I, II and Nam'. A 2 piece pin does allow field fixes w/o pulling the striker.
    Very true. In years past, I read that various units would have half of their 1903 butstocks cary the tubular cleaning kit in the hole provided and the other half carry a spare striker. I've only seen that in print once so it's hard to verify.

    In the end, that two piece firing pin seems like someone in ordnance was listening to the Good Idea Fairy.


    Quote Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
    im sure it was some brain childs idea that it would make broken pins easier to fix in the field. having said that, just about anyone with 2 hands can change one in a mauser in a minute or two. never hear of many broken pins in a mauser though......
    Most of the Mausers used by the Wehrmacht in WWI and WWII had a plug or hole in the but stock to facilitate taking the FP apart and putting it back together. Doesn't get any easier than that! That was probably just for cleaning though as most firing pins should be measured for depth of strike by an armorer to avoid misfires or punctured primers. On the other hand, the parts for Mausers all had to pass extensive gauging from the acceptance office (Waffenamt) located at each factory.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 09-14-2017 at 04:34 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

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    The Winchester Ms 54 & 70 both had coned breeches and "everyone" knows the M70 is the "greatest" action ever made.

    Obviously "experts" who never owned a commercial Mauser Werke or FN sporting rifle.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldon View Post
    The Winchester Ms 54 & 70 both had coned breeches and "everyone" knows the M70 is the "greatest" action ever made.

    Obviously "experts" who never owned a commercial Mauser Werke or FN sporting rifle.
    What he said^^^^^^^

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  11. #11
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Scharfschuetze View Post
    Very true. In years past, I read that various units would have half of their 1903 butstocks cary the tubular cleaning kit in the hole provided and the other half carry a spare striker. I've only seen that in print once so it's hard to verify.

    In the end, that two piece firing pin seems like someone in ordnance was listening to the Good Idea Fairy.




    Most of the Mausers used by the Wehrmacht in WWI and WWII had a plug or hole in the but stock to facilitate taking the FP apart and putting it back together. Doesn't get any easier than that! That was probably just for cleaning though as most firing pins should be measured for depth of strike by an armorer to avoid misfires or punctured primers. On the other hand, the parts for Mausers all had to pass extensive gauging from the acceptance office (Waffenamt) located at each factory.
    Actually, that hole in the buttstock served two purposes. It's main job was when the rifles were shipped, ten to a case, and a steel shipping rod was passed through the stocks (and case sides) to keep them secure.........talked to a man who actually helped remove them from original crates back in the mid fifties.

    Of course, it made a dandy striker removal tool for the soldier in the field too............

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    My win 54 has a flat breech as it is in 30-30wcf. However they did copy the two piece firing pin assembly off the 1903 springfield. In fact if the springfield firing pin striker can be used as a replacement in the 54. Frank

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    My guess and its only a guess. Have to keep in mind the govt was involved in the design and some bureaucrat or high ranking military officer decided he liked the two piece better.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    It might be that it was thought to be desirable for the two parts of the firing-pin to be of different steels, or in a different state of hardness. In some rifles a firing-pin tip harder than the bolt allows the firing-pin protrusion to lengthen. I don't say "was desirable", but "was thought to be."

    I don't see any danger in the funnel breech, if the brass is sound and the funnel is made to normal arsenal standards, as most were. But it is equally hard to see any point, when I don't believe any part of the cartridge touches anything but the edge of the chamber. I would be warier of a barrel fitted by an unknown person, of unknown neurological qualities. Inserting a case thinly coated in wax would show how far up the steel comes.

    I don't believe any feature of the M1903 derives specifically from the 98 Mauser. Everything can be attributed to earlier models. One it seems a pity to miss out was the internal stop-ring on which the rear face of the 98 Mauser barrel, not its shoulder, screws up tight in assembly. A lot of people have manufactured Mausers in a state of desperation, with inferior materials, heat treatment and ammunition. I don't think there is much doubt about that internal stop-ring conferring extra strength against the gases from a blown case-head.

    Possibly it was omitted for ease of machining. A comparison lies in different Mausers. They started out "C-ring", with the right bolt-lug way broached all the way through that stop-ring, as it must be to accommodate the extractor. Some later Mausers, sometimes good ones, had the left bolt lug way broached all the way through, making them "H-ring", although I would sooner have called them "bracket-ring", (). It sacrifices strength for ease of manufacture, though strength that doesn't matter as long as the case-head holds.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    A lot of stuff on the 1903 is a holdover from the Krag. You mention the firing pin, also the magazine cutoff. I think people have even modified 1903 stocks to fit Krags.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    the nra sold krag carbines made up with 03 barrels. they are easy to tell because they have the 03 front sight.

    then we have bannerman 03's made up from krag parts and early 03 parts. in the movie sergeant York they are using 03's with krag rear sights.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    A fellow named Hallihan wrote a book called Misfire back in 1994 that investigates the cesspool of knuckle-dragging, bureaucratic stupidity of U.S. Ordnance small arms procurement. From George Washington to today, the only two on which they got the process right on were the 1911 and the Garand, so I wouldn't expect to find a lot of genius in the 1903.

    I don't know the straight answer to your question, but patent dodging, unsuccessful as it was, seems a likely answer. We got the Trapdoor when we could have had the Rolling Block for reasons of misplaced frugality, so that wouldn't surprise me. Also worth considering is the relatively unproven newness of the 98 at the time, coupled with the general eagerness of gun "designers" to screw up a good idea with "improvements". Just look at how many of the 1911's features that have been placed on inferior handguns that were been designed by lawyers and accountants; they usually have a lot more parts in them and are harder to service or shoot well. Given the varying hardness and corrosive nature of primers at the time as well as metallurgical issues that would pop up, Uncle Sam might have been expecting them to break and wanted an easy and cheap field fix. If nothing else, spares would be lighter to carry and ship that way. I don't know the armorer side of those rifles, but it would certainly be possible to make those firing pins in several lengths to get protrusion correct, though that seems more like an "aim for the middle of acceptable tolerances with one size" process than a "gauge to fit" one.

    It's worth noting that the world's armies of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were largely outfitted with the designs of Americans who got frustrated dealing with the red tape of U.S. Ordnance and sold their patents abroad. So, whatever the actual answer is, I doubt Albert Einstein was involved in it.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I believe Brophy answers the question in his book.
    Larry Gibson

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  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    A fellow named Hallihan wrote a book called Misfire back in 1994 that investigates the cesspool of knuckle-dragging, bureaucratic stupidity of U.S. Ordnance small arms procurement. From George Washington to today, the only two on which they got the process right on were the 1911 and the Garand, so I wouldn't expect to find a lot of genius in the 1903.
    Recently seeing a rare but original 03 Springfield, chambered in the obsolete 30/03 cartridge with the ridiculous rod bayonet. I believe you're right on with "knuckle-dragging, bureaucratic stupidity".

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by azrednek View Post
    Recently seeing a rare but original 03 Springfield, chambered in the obsolete 30/03 cartridge with the ridiculous rod bayonet. I believe you're right on with "knuckle-dragging, bureaucratic stupidity".
    If you've been following the Beretta replacement pistol trial. . .the haze of corruption and/or incompetence currently surrounding the P320 is certainly one thing, but what really gets me flaming is that they've spent about twice as much just trying to SELECT a pistol as they plan to spend on the pistols themselves.

    It's pretty well known that John Browning sold Ordnance on what became the M1917 watercooled machinegun when he stitched a bunch of belts together and held the trigger down for over 45 minutes. What's NOT so widely known is that he had the basic concept ready to go a decade early, but the U.S. military couldn't be bothered to seriously consider machineguns until they were a couple months away from looking down the barrels of a few hundred thousand German M.G.'s. You have to think that at our 1917 declaration of war, the Germans had to be chuckling into their sleeves and quoting Hilarie Belloc's The Modern Traveller:

    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.


    The Springfield at least ended up being a pretty decent rifle. Ordnance was still clinging to the notion of "Give a trooper a magazine rifle, and he'll burn more ammo than we can provide him with", so it's something of a minor miracle that it actually got made to accept stripper clips. The magazine cutoff was added by those same holdouts, which, if you think about how a Mauser/Springfield extractor feeds. . .you just want to build a time machine for the sole purpose of going back to slap people.

    I'm not sure if I can forgive them the skinny, hard-to-see sights or not. In 1903, our notion of war was lots of white smoke from black powder, marching in ranks, or Indian fighting, and you had the concept of graduating your sights out to 2000 yards for raining nearly indirect fire down on massed bodies of troops or their camps. Aside from the front being flimsy, those sights wouldn't be awful for that. Certainly nobody expected anything like WWI - during which we largely deployed with peep-sighted M1917 Enfields.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

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