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Thread: Rem 700 ADL 30-06....some reloads not chambering

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy benellinut's Avatar
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    When I've had this problem I use a magic marker to coat the round, let it dry well then slowly start closing the bolt until you feel resistance, extract and look for where the marker shows contact, there's you problem area. Make sure you have a clean chamber and throat and remove all oil and solvents so it won't make the marker ink run.

    I had one of my M1 Garand's re-barreled, I requested the chamber be cut at the min specs for a tight chamber. I had purchased a LOT of the surplus ammo from the CMP some years ago when it was good stuff (sealed spam cans w/same lot#'s) and much cheaper then today, including the Greek HXP and come Lake City, every once in a while I'll have round from the surplus that the bolt won't close on, more the LC then the HXP. I always set those aside and check them when home with the marker trick and it's always the shoulder is just a tad farther ahead then MY chamber will allow and yet they will just pass the LE Wilson gauge. Yeah I've got a tight chamber, just what I asked for and wanted and I'm happy with it, the rifle is a shooter.

    Be interested to hear where your binding, the shoulder, neck with bullet seated is too large (or bulged crimp?) or bullet contacting the lands. Give the marker trick a try and see what you get, it's quick, simple, reliable and repeatable.
    Be careful what you wish for!

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy duckey's Avatar
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    oldblinddog

    Ill have to check

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy duckey's Avatar
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    I did the marker trick on the neck and shoulder of a round that I could not close the bolt on (not chamber well) and mid shoulder showed signs of a problem area, I ended up screwing my die in just a tad more and shimming my shell holder to remove the slack when a case was inserted and this solved the problem. I still am curious to know if I am within SAAMI specs for head space, just need to some how convert my readings from the C 375 bushing on my Hornady Lock N Load head space gauge, or see if there is another bushing I can use.

    Quote Originally Posted by benellinut View Post
    When I've had this problem I use a magic marker to coat the round, let it dry well then slowly start closing the bolt until you feel resistance, extract and look for where the marker shows contact, there's you problem area. Make sure you have a clean chamber and throat and remove all oil and solvents so it won't make the marker ink run.

    I had one of my M1 Garand's re-barreled, I requested the chamber be cut at the min specs for a tight chamber. I had purchased a LOT of the surplus ammo from the CMP some years ago when it was good stuff (sealed spam cans w/same lot#'s) and much cheaper then today, including the Greek HXP and come Lake City, every once in a while I'll have round from the surplus that the bolt won't close on, more the LC then the HXP. I always set those aside and check them when home with the marker trick and it's always the shoulder is just a tad farther ahead then MY chamber will allow and yet they will just pass the LE Wilson gauge. Yeah I've got a tight chamber, just what I asked for and wanted and I'm happy with it, the rifle is a shooter.

    Be interested to hear where your binding, the shoulder, neck with bullet seated is too large (or bulged crimp?) or bullet contacting the lands. Give the marker trick a try and see what you get, it's quick, simple, reliable and repeatable.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy benellinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckey View Post
    I did the marker trick on the neck and shoulder of a round that I could not close the bolt on (not chamber well) and mid shoulder showed signs of a problem area, I ended up screwing my die in just a tad more and shimming my shell holder to remove the slack when a case was inserted and this solved the problem. I still am curious to know if I am within SAAMI specs for head space, just need to some how convert my readings from the C 375 bushing on my Hornady Lock N Load head space gauge, or see if there is another bushing I can use.
    Sorry, I was guilty of not reading all the posts before I posted, stumbled across your thread at wee hours looking for something else and I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in while I was thinking of it. Yeah interesting what you've found so far, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it. If you've never had an issue with factory ammo it's probably not an undersized chamber but rather a problem with not getting a good resizing which could be one of a number of things, dies, the press, setup, shell holder, but it looks like your on the right path to figuring it out.

    One thing that stuck out to me was you said most of your brass is mostly range pickup's, unless your finding new ammo boxes laying there with the brass and know for sure the history is truly once fired I wouldn't use it. I use to, but after finding brass that had weaken heads I started being a lot more careful in used rifle brass. I've also seen range brass that was obviously fired in a rifle that had some excessive head space and the cases were really stretched from firing, those may not resize well and would surely need trimming, if one was to ever try reloading them..... Straight wall pistol brass being lower pressure is another story, high pressure rifle rounds get my utmost respect when reloading. I made a pick to reach inside the case and feel for a grove that starts at the web of the base near the head of the case before case separation starts, I found a few that looked OK on the outside but had the groove starting on the inside. Somewhere I had pics of cases I sliced in half to show the pick I made and where the groove starts, if I can locate them and post them I will, got to find a work around for photobucket now.

    I now keep my rifle brass in lots with notes stuck inside the bags with the history of what loads I used, how many times fired, trimmed and such, when I find signs of any defects in more then two I'll scrap the lot. Maybe I'm tossing money away by being too careful but I don't ever want to have a case separation when my cheek in on the stock....

    Also as mention before, look closely at the extraction groves, the prior poster was right, some Garand's will raise hell and deform the case head bending the grove back or forward. My first Garand did that until I fixed it, no way you'd get a good resizing with the case like that, some were so bad you'd never get them in a shell holder but some would fit but not sit flush, they went in the scrap box. When I scrap cases I crush the mouths with pliers so I won't forget they were to be scraped and no one else would be able to use them.

    I have an nice 70's ADL in .270, got a hell of a deal on it for $225 many years ago from a fellow getting divorced. Has nice wood, Montecarlo rest, came with a wideview scope, reloading dies, ammo, bullets and brass. I love that rifle but I wish it was 06, got all this CMP ammo I could use in it. After my first firing and trimming I only neck size for that rifle, it's the only .270 I have anyways.

    Hope you get it figured out soon, half the fun of reloading is figuring these things out, you learn a little more each time and there is always more to learn. Cheers.
    Be careful what you wish for!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    1. Some die brands are longer than others in the FL resizing die. RCBS is one of the longer brands. RCBS dies are usually about half way between go and no go in length so that you do not oversize the cases. On the other hand a Lyman die is the opposite. The Lyman FL die is usually right on the minimum (GO length) so they are about .004 to .006 shorter than RCBS. You can find the chamber drawings at the SAAMI website. For the 30-06 type in 30-06 SAAMI and one of the first results will be the SAAMI drawings.

    Cartridge drawings are shown at maximum material condition (MMC). Any tolerance will let the cartridge be smaller.
    Chamber drawings are shown at MMC also but since it is a reamed hole the maximum material is always the smallest chamber. Any tolerance allows the chamber to be larger. These conventions insure that the ammo will always fit in the chamber.

    2. C presses (if that is what you are using) will spring open resulting in an even longer case. Even my Rockchucker will spring open .001 to .002 with the same machingun fired brass.

    3. Too little lube or too fast sizing or both will not permit the case to creep all that it can to take up the shortest possible length.

    4. To correct some of all 3 above, lube your cases and slowly raise the ram then let it dwell for 3 to 4 seconds. Then lower the ram just enough to get your finger on the case and spin it about 1/3 of turn. Slowly resize again and let dwell again. The lower the case spin another 1/3 and size again slowly with the dwell. After 3 repititions you should have the case mashed back as far as the die will permit. Some times you can get a little more sizing by pumping the press handle just enough to pull the case loose 3 or 4 times before you turn it then pump 3-or 4 times then repeat a 3rd time. All this elbow work does is apply repeated pressure to the case and give it more time under force to creep around the shoulder and neck intersections.

    Now the brass should chamber. If it does not chamber check your brass with a Hornady tool or a Wilson gage. In an extreme case you can get a few thousandths faced off of the bottom of the die to make everything work.

    1. For troubleshooting problems like this I recommend the Hornady tool because it can check and compare so many different rounds. To make the Hornady tool give you more accurate numbers it can be set on a gunsmith's headspace gage but that is not really necessary for most folks. But using the Hornady tool, a gunsmith's headspace gage and a Wilson gage you will have all the tools to understand your problem.
    2. If you have a C press think about getting something stronger. I had one many moons ago and it would spring open .007" when sizing machine gun fired US GI brass.
    3. You can easily check the size of the pressure ring near the base of the case with a good caliper or a micrometer.

    PS the way dies are made they nearly always stop on the shoulder long before the body gets wedged into the chamber.


    Quote Originally Posted by duckey View Post
    So out of 10 reloads with J words I will have a few rounds that will not chamber at all, others may feel tight chambering as i close the bolt, the rest chamber just fine My reloading process includes FL sizing my brass or neck sizing my fire formed brass, I check case length and trim with a lee case trimming tool in my cordless drill, I also chamfer inside and out of case mouth. I use RP, Win, FC brass....most of which is range pick up. I tumble it in corn cob and separate my brand. I just ordered a L E Wilson Case gauge to hopefully help solve my issue. I was just on the YouTubes and a fellow was talking about the Lyman "Ammo Checker" as he compared this to his L E wilson Gauge. What i got out of this is that the L E Wilson gauge will check headspace and case length and the Lyman Ammo Checker will check the case body size and let you know if it will fit into your chamber. Now I looked at an RCBS base sizing die that said it could be used for ammo going into the bolt gun and in the specs of the die is said it is not recommended....???? I have an RCBS 2 FL die set and the resizing die looks just like the base sizing die (PN#1408), so I am all over the road here. I do own a Hornady Lock and load Headspace gauge and was messing around with that tonight and saw some different readings between cases that chambered fine with ones that were a tad sticky and those that I could not close the bolt on. I am thinking I need to either bump my shoulder back on my cases and or size my base down a bit. Any suggestions?
    Last edited by EDG; 08-31-2017 at 07:07 PM.
    EDG

  6. #26
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    duckey

    Using the C .375 bushing should give a correct headspace reading. The SAAMI chamber headspace using a .375 datum line is 1.9479 to 1.9480. Your fired cases in that chamber, especially the ones that are a tight fit and you can "feel" the bolt close on, should measure with in or slightly below that.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    In theory you are correct. The problem is for some reason Hornady chose to break the edges (the functional datum surface) of the buishing bores.
    The bushings bores all have a ,004 to .006 edge break that make the Hornady tool read off by that amount.

    To make the Hornady tool read near perfect you can set it with a gunsmith headspace gage to the length value marked on the gage. Then your results will be nearly perfect. You must set the caliper using a gage with the exact same shoulder angle for a cartridge that uses the same datum circle diameter.
    So you cannot set a Hornady gage to check a .358 Win using a .243 gage. The numbers on a .358 Win come from a .420 datum diameter. The .243 numbers come from a .400 datum circle.

    Yes it is possible to trig out the differences in some cases but that might assume more math than some people care to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    duckey

    Using the C .375 bushing should give a correct headspace reading. The SAAMI chamber headspace using a .375 datum line is 1.9479 to 1.9480. Your fired cases in that chamber, especially the ones that are a tight fit and you can "feel" the bolt close on, should measure with in or slightly below that.
    EDG

  8. #28
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    Not sure about theory you speak of but in practiclaluse my Stoney Point gauges measure catrtridge headspace correctly. There was a list of cartridge headspace included with my Stoney Point, assuming Hornady includes it also? There are some things such as shoulder angle that can affect the measurement as mentioned, anufacturing tolerances in particular. That's why there is a +/- for chamber and cartridge headspace.

    However the OPs problem of hard or not chambering of reloaded cartridges that were fired previously in his rifle is not a headspace problem. Something in the reloading process is causing the problem. I suggest he reset his FL die so the shell holder is a solid stop against the bottom of the die. I have seen this very problem in the past where a max sizing die and a minimum chamber (both still within spec) are not compatable with a "cam over" setting. There akso should not be a hard drag or "chatter" of the neck over the expander ball as that wil pull the neck forward increasing cartridge headspace.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-01-2017 at 10:26 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    My Stoney Point tool measures NOTHING exactly right unless it is set to agree with a headspace gage. There is no way to tell that those gages are off unless you use a gunsmith's headspace gage. They are useful as is for a comparator - checking one case against another or a before and after measurement of the same case. I have 12 different bushings and every last one of them has the edge of the datum bore broken making all of them have a built in error. The shoulder angle is followed by a B which means it is basic and has NO Tolerance. The only tolerance the shoulder gets is caused by the variations in the other dimensions that do have tolerances. See the note that * dimensions are to intersections of lines. That is part of the US National Standard ASME Y14.5M Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing. Because the datum bore to datum face intersection is supposed to be a sharp corner, such a datum ignores small variations in shoulder angles. That is why we have a simpler datum system than CIP.

    I have verified this is correct by measuring fired and resized brass using the Stoney Point/Hornady tool and a 50" OGP optical comparator that makes the case image about 4 ft tall at 20 power. It is easy to measure to a few ten thousandths (.0001s) at that magnification. That comparator was calibrated back to the NIST standards and was used every day in a medical implant manufacturer.
    click to enlarge
    Click image for larger version. 

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    There is another problem that can cause the problem identified here. That is the Delta L problem defined by CIP.
    Some design drawings result in a Maximum length cartridge that will not chamber in a minimum chamber. The 7.65 Mauser also has the Delta L problem. I never mention it because it is beyond the experience of most hand loaders to easily understand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem



    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Not sure about theory you speak of but in practiclaluse my Stoney Point gauges measure catrtridge headspace correctly. There was a list of cartridge headspace included with my Stoney Point, assuming Hornady includes it also? There are some things such as shoulder angle that can affect the measurement as mentioned, anufacturing tolerances in particular. That's why there is a +/- for chamber and cartridge headspace.

    However the OPs problem of hard or not chambering of reloaded cartridges that were fired previously in his rifle is not a headspace problem. Something in the reloading process is causing the problem. I suggest he reset his FL die so the shell holder is a solid stop against the bottom of the die. I have seen this very problem in the past where a max sizing die and a minimum chamber (both still within spec) are not compatable with a "cam over" setting. There akso should not be a hard drag or "chatter" of the neck over the expander ball as that wil pull the neck forward increasing cartridge headspace.
    EDG

  10. #30
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    Skimming over the posts, I don't see anything about the OP trimming the brass to the correct length. Could it be the case necks are just too long and are jamming against the end of the chamber?

    Second thought: The Remington 700 extractor, if not fitting properly, can tear up case rims and make it really hard to close the bolt.

  11. #31
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    EDG

    That's too bad about your Stoney Point......mine on the other hand measures as precisely as the calipers it's put on. On the calipers I use it is precise because when mounted I calibrate it to 2.000" when the caliper is closed on the Stoney Point. My C bushing measures .375" at the opening (pin gauged) so when a 30-06 case is measured it stops on the .375 datum line of that case. 2.000" is then subtracted from the length measured which gives the cartridge headspace measurement to the .375 datum line on the shoulder. Additionally, the calipers I use have been checked against pin gauges of various diameters and certified gauges of various lengths.

    We should note here the Stoney Point (Hornady) tool measures cartridge case headspace (fired or unfired). Gunsmiths headspace gauges measure chamber headspace. The cartridge headspace should be less than chamber headspace. SAAMI also lists cartridge diagrams with cartridge headspace measurement. That measurement always has a +/- which should be considered, especially when comparing such against the measurements (+/-) of chamber dimensions. I have measured the headspace of numerous go, no-go and field chamber gauges with my Stoney Point and they measure correct as long as the same datum line is used.

    CIP has a "Delta L" problem with some cartridges because they lump several similar cartridges under one designated drawing; the 7.65 Mauser is a good example. However, the OP is concerned about the 30-06 which does not have Delta L problem when SAAMI spec are used.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-05-2017 at 02:27 PM.
    Larry Gibson

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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 376Steyr View Post
    Skimming over the posts, I don't see anything about the OP trimming the brass to the correct length. Could it be the case necks are just too long and are jamming against the end of the chamber?

    Second thought: The Remington 700 extractor, if not fitting properly, can tear up case rims and make it really hard to close the bolt.
    OP states in post #1 he trims the cases with the Lee tool. Doesn't mention the case OAL after measuring. Perhaps a measurement might be in order?
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #33
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    Just for giggles, check that sorry, pathetic piece of stamped spring steel Remington calls an extractor. Found one on buddy's that would only close with weapon rolled to 2-3 o'clock. It was a NEW 308 and it was loose in bolt face, that Sako mod would be in mine if any were to sneak into this house. This was many moons ago and I was instructed by my Obe One to order three for installation, one- you will pinch, two- maybe with a spare, three for went bad!

  14. #34
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    some of the older rems I had had chambers on the tight side. My 6mm classic is a good example. I just use a small base sizing die and they work fine like that.

  15. #35
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    That silly pathetic extractor has worked in millions of 721,722,600,xp-100, 788 and 700 rifles over the past 70 years. Too bad you're buddy got a bad one.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    That silly pathetic extractor has worked in millions of 721,722,600,xp-100, 788 and 700 rifles over the past 70 years. Too bad you're buddy got a bad one.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    Yep, I have owned Remingtons since the 1950s, including 722s, 600s, 700s and 788s. The only extractor I 've ever seen broken was one I tried to remove from my 722 in 222 Remington, and I broke it. Should have left it alone.

  17. #37
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    OK, What I did was to take a spare #3 shell holder and grind a small bit off the top of the shell holder.
    That, when the case is sized and the shell holder is in contact with the bottom of the die will move
    the shoulder back a tad bit. And it that does not fix the problem, the shell holder is of small cost.

    Mike
    Last edited by skeettx; 09-08-2017 at 02:43 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy benellinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeettx View Post
    OK, What I did was to take a spare #3 shell holder and grind a small bit off the top of the shell holder.
    That, when the case is sized and the shell holder is in contact with the bottom of the die will move
    the shoulder back a tad bit. And it that does not fix the problem, the shell holder is of small cost.

    Mike
    That was a wise try, I always try to modify the least expensive part first in case it doesn't work. I'll leave further suggestions to the folks with more knowledge then I have. I hope you get it figured out soon and please keep posting what you try till you get there, it could help someone else one day. Cheers.
    Be careful what you wish for!

  19. #39
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  20. #40
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    Some issues with a true tight chamber can come from the area from the case head just in front of the solid rim, the shoulder where it joins the body, and the shoulder it self. A min headspace chamber is cut to "0" on headspace with a standard reamer and the body stays the same or very close . On the tight chamber the reamer is ground to min specs over the whole reamer so small based dies might actually be needed to match it and have easy chambering. Some dies do a better job of sizing the shoulder area than others, There is some times a ring where the shoulder meets the body on cases of just a few thousandths but in a tight chamber this can be enough to make cases chamber hard.

    My match grade M1As have min headspace chambers a headspace gauge closes but add a piece of cellophane tape to the back of the gage and they don't. I have a reamer that cuts a very good chamber with a throat that puts 155 grn sierras touching the rifling at mag length. The reamer is ground to min specs and rifles chambered with it require a small based die for 100% functioning. But this reamer cuts a very accurate shooting chamber that perfoms very well.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check