348 Winchester

[smokeywolf]

As posted above, the .348's recoil can be punishing, but a .45-70 w/300gr boolits can be pleasant to shoot in a rifle with ample weight; AND some folks prefer a pistol-grip buttstock, which Model 86's don't have.

I've run across a few Model 71's converted to .45-70, but never a Model 86 converted to .348.

It could also simply be that somebody with an old Model 86 just wanted the latest/greatest after the Great Depression of the early 1930's.

.

I would be very interested in knowing where your info on Model '86s not having pistol grip stocks originates.

I can assure you, the Model '86 was most certainly available with a pistol grip stock, as were all or nearly all models of Winchester levers beginning with the Model '73.

[quilbilly]

Years ago I had a Mod 71 in 348 and loved it. It was the standard model and not the deluxe model. It was a fine shooter and I got several Roosevelt elk with it using Hornady projectiles that I reloaded at a slightly lower velocity than factory. Eventually, when it became too valuable as a collectable to take out on the Olympic Peninsula during "monsoon season", I traded it for an amazing value. For elk, moose, and even medium to larger bears at moderate ranges in close country out to 150 yards, the 348 is an amazing caliber.

[elk hunter]

Fine deer rifle. Haven't shot anything else with it.

[TXGunNut]

I would be very interested in knowing where your info on Model '86s not having pistol grip stocks originates.

I can assure you, the Model '86 was most certainly available with a pistol grip stock, as were all or nearly all models of Winchester levers beginning with the Model '73.

That's right, and a very desirable option for collectors. Many of the "deluxe" models have pistol grips.

[pietro]

I would be very interested in knowing where your info on Model '86s not having pistol grip stocks originates.

I can assure you, the Model '86 was most certainly available with a pistol grip stock, as were all or nearly all models of Winchester levers beginning with the Model '73.

That's right, and a very desirable option for collectors. Many of the "deluxe" models have pistol grips.

Anyone that thinks the Model 1886 Deluxe was commonly available, is mis-informed.

Since they were a Special Order item only, there's not many Deluxe Model 1886's around that the common working man could obtain.

Per the BBGV, standard Model 1886's were issued with straight grip buttstocks only.

https://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Gun_...Standard_Rifle

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[smokeywolf]

Not trying to get into a pi$$ing contest here. You're right that the pistol grip was not standard on the standard model. It was a common feature on the deluxe model and yes, Joe Blow typically could not afford a deluxe model Winchester.
That being said, you stated, 'model '86s don't have pistol grip butt stocks'. You can find them all day long on most of the gun auction sites.

I kind of like this one.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not sure why anyone would want to re-chamber a model 71 to 45-70 when there are thousands upon thousands of model '86s out there that are factory chambered for 45-70. Also seems like you'd be going backward since the 50-110 is the parent case for the 348.

There were actually a few M71's made in .45-70 I don't know how many but I have seen pics of a couple and they were factory made guns.

Tatume: The Action is not for cartridges above about 48-50K psi. Below that they are fine.

The locking lugs are at the back of the action so the action stretching does influence strength.

My #4 Mk1 still in .303 British has 6 reloadings on the first 100 PPU Cases I bought. These are loaded slightly below full Factory 150 gr loads. I can also load Hornady 174 gr round noses and Woodleigh 215 gr RN's as well as 215 gr Solids. These guns are more than adequate for 95% of the game animals on the planet. Slightly less than a similar .30-06 (about 200fps less) but still effective.

The key to case preservation is to only Neck Size them. These cases headspace on the rim so once they are fire formed they are good to go. It takes some serious overloading to stretch the action beyond acceptable headspace, and then it is probably permanent.

The issue lies in the chamber of the guns which are usually longer than necessary to cope with loosely standardized ammo made thruout the Empire. As a result if you push the shoulder back repeatedly it stretches the case and it will separate within 2-3 reloadings. If you only neck size this doesn't happen.

There are several other derivatives that can be interesting and powerful. I have a #4 Mk1* made in Canada that I had Jess rebore to .35-303 I am expecting great things from that rifle and the new Hornady cases I have will be opened up to .35 cal. with a .358 Win die and only neck sized after that.

There is also a .375-303 which I believe they call .375x2 1/2 and even a .400 cal cartridge all based on the .303 case. Lee Speed/BSA made these guns in several different calibers and grades and all are fine examples of English gun making.

Lots to learn here and some of our friends from down under or the UK have been exposed to more of this stuff than us Yanks.

Randy

[TXGunNut]

Randy is right, there are two known & verified 71's that are chambered in 45-70. Also two in 33WCF. A few more may exist.
It's a common misconception that Winchesters with optional features such as a pistol grip or octagonal barrels (for example) are special order guns. In fact "Fancy Sporting Rifles" were a regular production item. Collectors now call them "Deluxe" and they were indeed luxury items. The 1886 has never been a common item.

[smokeywolf]

Randy, you're killing me.

Now I have to go do more research. Checked The Winchester Book. George said, apart from a few experimental versions, all model 71s were chambered for 348. My Google-fu isn't pulling anything up.
Did find this...
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/pro...71-rifles.html
And this...
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tip...er-action.html

I don't doubt what you saw with your own eyes, just always looking to learn more about Winchesters.

[TXGunNut]

I don't doubt what you saw with your own eyes, just always looking to learn more about Winchesters.-smokeywolf

PM sent.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smokey: I saw these in the NRA Mag along time ago in an article about M71's. I might have cut that article out and put it in a binder,,,

time passes,,, 30 minutes later,,,, found it!!!!

American Rifleman April 1991 Article by Rick Hacker on the M71. And there is a picture of one of the .45-70's! Excellent in depth article and it turns out the guns were made in .33 Win as a Special Order as well. No mention of more than one .45-70 being made, but I have heard 2 mentioned several times other places.

Probably worth a bunch, but also probably in a museum.

Since Marlin brought the .45-70 back and now it is 100 times more popular than it ever was in the past, maybe someone will talk them into producing 1895's in .348 Win? Doesn't seem like Winchester is willing to take a chance.

Randy

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Would the Marlin bolt face have enough diameter for the 348 case diameter ?
Mike in Peru

[Tatume]

The length will probably preclude use in the Marlin 336 action.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=pietro;4136677]As posted above, the .348's recoil can be punishing, but a .45-70 w/300gr boolits can be pleasant to shoot in a rifle with ample weight;

Dunno how you figgered that out - I own both - never thought the 348 as punishing - the model 71 rifle is better designed for recoil than any other repeater gun I have seen - its about like a soft load in a 12 gauge - nothing to worry about - a 45/70 with 300grain is pleasant? yeah - if you stick to factory trapdoor loads - start making that thing talk, you slinging 75 grains more lead - good thing you said can be pleasant cuz push the load and a 45/70 can be quite unpleasant - I have one

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;4137479]There were actually a few M71's made in .45-70 I don't know how many but I have seen pics of a couple and they were factory made guns.

Tatume: The Action is not for cartridges above about 48-50K psi. Below that they are fine.

The locking lugs are at the back of the action so the action stretching does influence strength.

My #4 Mk1 still in .303 British has 6 reloadings on the first 100 PPU Cases I bought. These are loaded slightly below full Factory 150 gr loads. I can also load Hornady 174 gr round noses and Woodleigh 215 gr RN's as well as 215 gr Solids. These guns are more than adequate for 95% of the game animals on the planet. Slightly less than a similar .30-06 (about 200fps less) but still effective.

The key to case preservation is to only Neck Size them. These cases headspace on the rim so once they are fire formed they are good to go. It takes some serious overloading to stretch the action beyond acceptable headspace, and then it is probably permanent.

The issue lies in the chamber of the guns which are usually longer than necessary to cope with loosely standardized ammo made thruout the Empire. As a result if you push the shoulder back repeatedly it stretches the case and it will separate within 2-3 reloadings. If you only neck size this doesn't happen.

There are several other derivatives that can be interesting and powerful. I have a #4 Mk1* made in Canada that I had Jess rebore to .35-303 I am expecting great things from that rifle and the new Hornady cases I have will be opened up to .35 cal. with a .358 Win die and only neck sized after that.

There is also a .375-303 which I believe they call .375x2 1/2 and even a .400 cal cartridge all based on the .303 case. Lee Speed/BSA made these guns in several different calibers and grades and all are fine examples of English gun making.

Lots to learn here and some of our friends from down under or the UK have been exposed to more of this stuff than us Yanks.

Lots of smaller calibre smellies downunder - 303/25 most common - I had a 22/303 falcon (sits between 22/250 and 220 swift) - there were a few in 6mm (243/303) an odd one in 303/270- and there was an odd-bod they called a 7.7 x 54? - (I think) - it was because we were not allowed to posess a military cilibre rifle of any country on earth - the test was if it would chamber a military round - cops of the day in rural areas would carry a mk7 303 round - so the gun nuts figured = take the barel out, shorten the chamber by one full thread, reset the barrel (woulda had to touch up the chamber a bit - but they were kinda sloppy maybe not?) then put loaded military brass through a swage die and reset the shoulder a bit - move it back - (again they fit sloppy to begin with so no big deal) - hey presto we got a 303 that aint a 303 cuz it will not chamber the standard round - still use the milsurp rifle and the cheap milsurp ammo.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Back to recoil. The big issue is how to align your body to the rear thrust of the rifle. Today I weigh a whole 151 pounds. I regularly shoot a 50 Alaskan on a 86 Winchester repro with a 525 cast chugging along at 1850 fps when up north there. Standing, sitting is no issue. Off cross sticks firing off 20-30 rounds is fun. Shoot that beast off a bench and you are in for a world of hurt unless you rig that rifle rest so the barrel is shoulder height up off the bench. Thus it is far easier to sit behind cross sticks. And with practice those cross sticks are within 1/4 of accuracy for me at 100 yards with our hunting rifles.
So re-think how ya go about absorbing the recoil. You can flow with it or get bashed brutally.
Mike in Peru

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Chambering the 1886 in .348 has been mentioned. I am sure the 1886 was used in development work. In fact it probably has its origins in the work done for Winchester by Hugo Gerlich. In fact he was invited to America by Winchester to work on his squeeze-bore principle, which they never used, but he also worked on a high-velocity cartridge for the 1886. I believe (but don't know) that this involved a parallel bore and conventional bullets. It was extremely effective in antitank guns, but superseded by conventional designs due to the difficulty and expense of manufacture, and in smallarms the practicalities would have been much worse.

The 1886 receiver isn't weak, and it doesn't have the vulnerability to gas escape from a ruptured case as a front-locking bolt-action. While modern alloy steels are generally a Good Thing, I am sceptical about their turning unsafe rifles, for a given load, into safe ones. The real weakness of the 1886 is the large ejector, which extends to the firing-pin hole in the originals. The ejector head can break off. I have heard of the rifle being fired without ill effects in this condition, with modern brass, but I wouldn't want to count on it. With any early 1886 it is worth checking for any dirt or rust under the ejector, which will throw unfair stress on the point where the ejector head joins the stem.

I think Winchester made it this way in the belief that very flimsy balloon-head cases might be used, and changed to a smaller ejector in the subsequent models. This is also found in modern versions of the 1886, and they would probably do well with the .348. The .348 rim is the same diameter as the .45-70 family, and the good news is that it very likely would feed, subject to cartridge overall length, in a tube-magazine rifle made for them. But that rim is therefore narrower, and I would want the ejector to be very accurately shaped in a single-shot rifle with a tilting ejector.ce

In the 1899 the most basic round-barrel 1886 (e.g. my .40-82) was $19.50. The same plain rifle was $21 with an octagonal barrel, and the Fancy Sporting Rifle with a pistol grip fancy walnut stock was $36. They were a lot less common (as anyone selling one today will tell you), but not on a plutocratic level. They illustrate engraving from No. 1 at $25 on top of the rifle price, up to the No1 which would make your eyes water, at $250. But the addition of a pistol grip stock and forend to any 1886 at the time of purchase is available in their extras list, from $15 for checkered fancy walnut down to $2.50 for plain and uncheckered.

Short case life in Lee-Enfields generally owes a lot more to the chambering than to flexure of the receiver. A shoulder too far forward, or the forward part of the body too large in diameter, are more important than neck size. Neck sizing will help with some and not with others. In fact there are rifles, mostly the No4, in which neither a longer bolt-head nor setting back a thread and rechambering is a complete solution. But the success of the Australian .303 wildcats does point at the military chamber as the culprit. It is still the same receiver, and I don't think the 1886 receiver is much of a problem either.