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Thread: Is a GC needed with low velocity trail boss loads and dose it affect accuracy?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Is a GC needed with low velocity trail boss loads and dose it affect accuracy?

    I am loading up some devistators to shoot in my 44 mag s&w Niteguard. I will be PC. I don't plan on shooting over a 1000fps. Closer to 750 fps to 975fps. Will there be an accuracy difference with PC only vs PC and GC out to 50 yards?
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 08-20-2017 at 08:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Driver man's Avatar
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    Try it and let us know
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    There are dozens of threads regarding to use or not to use gas checks. But always more fun to see how it works for yourself. I recently tried some 308 loads using 50/50 vs Lyman #2. With one powder the groups grew and with another they shrank. I wasn't expecting to see that. Now I'll have to check more often, adding to the fun of discovery.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I am loading up some devistators to shoot in my 44 mag s&w Niteguard. I will be PC. I don't plan on shooting over a 1000fps. Closer to 750 fps to 975fps. Will there be an accuracy difference with PC only vs PC and GC out to 50 yards?
    I shoot .357 loads using near full house loads on PC'd Lee 358 158 SWC's without checks. I have also tried it with checks, then PC'd. Then PC'd ,and then installed checks. I soon discovered that i could get away without the checks, and save then for traditional lube boolit uses. Accuracy out to 50 yards didnt seem to be any great difference, but YMMV .
    However i find that half of my enjoyment of our craft is the experimenting and ,just plain "lets see if this works,or wonder if i can try this with good results". Enjoy the ride and be safe doing so. -CASTER
    In regards to shooting safety.Until you are ready to fire, keep your booger hook off the bang switch.

  5. #5
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    my 2˘
    A boolit with a perfect shaped base will be more accurate than a boolit with a base that has some imperfections.
    This is especially true with Rifle ammo, less so with handgun ammo.
    Furthermore, if shooting off-hand at 50 yds, the amount of influence from a imperfect boolit base is negligible compared to the amount of influence by the human.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I think the difference 'might' be detectable if shot from a ransom rest (fixed rest).
    Far more influencing factors like...are they sized correctly for that gun...do they have consistent crimping...are the powder charges consistent, ect. will have more influence in this case than bare bottoms or gas checked at this velocity.
    The first thing that comes to mind is your Pb blend if you are going to expect the devastator to mushroom like you want.
    A general rule of thumb in this low velocity realm is this...1 BHN hardness unit to each 100 FPS in velocity. A Pb that will 'just' work at 950 FPS will be almost non expanding in the 750 FPS range.
    This mould will either delight you or send you back to the casting bench a few times.

    Check out the work . . . https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-M...hm02hMxIIY-b0w . . . 'Loads of Bacon' has done with the .44 Mag. and hollow points. You can get exact loads and exact Pb blends off his channel.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    My PB I'm using is a mix of 16lbs of lead flooring and a 1lb of pewter. It was a failed attempt at 16:1 and dropped out of the mold at 7BH. After a couple weeks it tested at 7.5BH. I am PCing it and GC 14 boolits to try. I loaded 7 of each up with 7g and 7.5g of trail boss and will be shooting them out of a 2" BBL.

    I watched loads of bacon and got the idea to try my soft PB mix for this purpose. I would think my velocity should be between 800-900 fps and would get some good expansion and with 6% pewter should hold together nicely without sheding the hollow point area.

    He tested at 8 BH and didn't get expansion till close to a 1000 fps so I'm hoping my softer boolit should expand and my lower velocities.
    If not he was getting around 2' of penatration at 950fps. I would think my 7.5g load has to be around 900fps? Can really find good load data anywhere.
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    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 08-21-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    It's not easy to get expansion from a snubby unless you up the charge a bit prolly into the +P area. It depends on the snubby and the cylinder gap too.
    I noticed that when I used pewter to sweeten my pure Pb at 2% it was too hard, or should I say not malleable enough to expand. I suspect the Cu. in the mix had something to do with that, can't say for sure. I switched to the pure tin that I got from rotometals and dropped the addition to 1% max...then things started to turn around.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master Retumbo's Avatar
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    Life is easier if your bullets are gas checked. I check everything

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    These are AC COWW GC boolits loaded with 6g of trail boss. They were laying about an inch in back of the two wood pallets i set up as a triangle to staple a target to. The target was placed at 25 yards. The one that mushroomed the largest I found about 10 ft in front of the target. I believe it was one I shot through a plastic bottle and tumbled.

    They grouped about the size of a pie plate so I wasn't impressed and figured they don't have a lot of energy if they were not a county mile past my pallets.

    It started raining so I couldn't try out the 7g and 7.5g loads with the softer boolits.

    The recoil on the 6g load was tame and I could shoot it all day. To bad it's not consistent. Looks like if they hit something hard like wood...or bone they would mushroom. This boolit is 14.3 BH and has 2 percent pewter added to the COWW and AC. GC are long gone as you can see.

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  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    I had a conversation with a technician at Accurate powder regarding whether to gas check or not on my loads for my .505 Gibbs. My velocity with a 525 gr. boolit is 1650'/s. This fella was also a .505 Gibbs shooter and very knowledgeable about such matters. His opinion is yes a checked boolit did indeed shoot more accurately than an unchecked one. additionally the burn seemed to be better and resulted in a cleaner bore after a shooting session. I took his advice and have found all those things to be true for me as well. Naturally there are a lot of variables in this game. Your mileage may vary from mine. Each firearm has its own characteristics that can only be determined by trial and load work-up for various alloys, powders, powder charges, size of boolit relative to the chamber/barrel (fit is king too by the way). So I think the best answer to your question for you is not easy to come up with. You are the only one who will determine that. After all that is part of the fun of this game isn't it?
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    For me a gas checked bullet will shoot better and the barrel will be a lot cleaner shooting powder coated bullets with a gas check. I made the gas check makers and now install a homemade gas check on all powder coated bullets. All of the cast bullets are flat base with a bevel on the bottom. The molds are all Magnum molds for an automated Master Caster machine. We shoot 200 bullets out of a single revolver and the barrel is very clean after a day at the gun club.

  13. #13
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    One question is decidedly unclear in this thread. Are you shooting GC boolits vs PB boolits or are you shooting a GC boolit with or without a GC? There is absolutely no need for a GC at these velocities.

    PB boolits are made/designed to be shot bare bottom. GC boolits are made/designed to use a GC, and thus the hardness of the alloy will be the deciding factor. .386 boolits shot out of a .400 barrel are accurate if soft enough - 41Colt. If they will obdurate, I would think a GC base would do so as well.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
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    For subsonic loads out to 50 yards, and even 100 if 2" groups are OK, no GC needed but as the others have said, it's much more fun to try it yourself.


  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I let speed dictate use of checks (and alloy).

    Up to @1600fps 97/3 no check
    Up to 1750fps+ 97/3 and a check
    From 1800fps'ish 94/3/3 and a check
    I have never gone much past 2200fps+ so i never needed anything harder.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Center bull is from 30/30 RD GC design without GC, HiTek coated, ACCOWW.
    Yes it can work @ 50 yds. I suspect the T.B. is too fast. WST works in my 9 S.C. but they are PB.
    Attachment 207857
    Whatever!

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
    For subsonic loads out to 50 yards, and even 100 if 2" groups are OK, no GC needed but as the others have said, it's much more fun to try it yourself.

    Nice work there...but, where did you get those targets?
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    To answer your question if you are shooting a powder coated only bullet that was designed for a gas check and you are not installing the gas check then "Yes" there will be an accuracy difference at 50 yards. The reason is a bullet is steered from the base and since the base of every bullet will differ accuracy will follow suit. As far as your velocity their will be no problems with a properly coated and cured powder coat, whether you gas check or not. In fact you can shoot powder coated pure lead at those velocities without issue.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check