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Thread: BHN after then after again

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    BHN after then after again

    If I cast using straight Linotype, which is what I have. What does the hardness anneal down to after 8 to 12 minutes at 400 degrees?


    Also, if I water quench the bullets after their 8 to 12 minutes at 400 degrees, will I regain any of that hardness or is the temp too low?
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    you can only draw the alloy down to it's original air cooled hardness.
    you can temporarily soften it past that point but it will be back at it's bhn within a week.

    15 minutes in an oven does nothing to change that.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  3. #3
    Boolit Master slide's Avatar
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    So what you are saying it is not necessary to quench bullets after powdercoating.
    Boolits !!!!! Does that mean what I think it do? It do!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    you can only draw the alloy down to it's original air cooled hardness.
    you can temporarily soften it past that point but it will be back at it's bhn within a week.

    15 minutes in an oven does nothing to change that.
    So if my Linotype bullets drop from the mold at 20 Bhn and then I cook them at 400 degrees for 12 minutes and they drop down to 10 Bhn....they'll go back up to 20 Bhn within a week?

    Out of curiosity...do I gain any hardness if I water drop it out of the 400 degree oven?
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  5. #5
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    runfiverun's Avatar
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    no the alloy needs a soak time for the heat to permeate all the way through so the antimony and tin can migrate.
    with linotype and lyman #2 they are a eutectic alloy they don't have phases of alloy melt they are solid or they are liquid you don't get response from them when quick cooling to lock the antimony throughout the lead.
    the SbSn chain is fully part of the matrix and stays in place [which doesn't allow the large bhn changes to take place]
    so yes the alloy goes from the softened state back to it's 18-20 bhn in about a week.

    SLIDE:
    I water dump my coated bullets after I take them out of the oven and let them rest for 2-3 minutes on a steel stool.
    I also stand all of mine up on a tray [about 4-500 at a time]
    I water dump them to insure that I don't have any sticking together.
    but a 15-20 minute soak at 400-f just isn't enough time to let the matrix move within the alloy to gain anything from rapid quenching.

    initially I thought hey,,, 400-f is a good cook temp for oven quenching to gain BHN.
    20 minutes should affect at least part of the boolit and it does but it doesn't allow enough time or depth for the change to take place.

    now if you cooked them for a full hour at say 325 where the powder coat doesn't flow and then turned the heat up to 400-f for the last 20 minutes to cook the powder and bump the alloy's internal temps too
    then you could water drop for a BHN change that would affect the outcome.
    you'd have to wait a full month for a low antimony alloy to show what changes it made and you'd have to experiment a little to get a consistency or a maximum BHN.

    but after talking to Glen Fryxell about it a few times I'm convinced 20 minutes isn't going to allow the changes I and most everyone else expected.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    no the alloy needs a soak time for the heat to permeate all the way through so the antimony and tin can migrate.
    with linotype and lyman #2 they are a eutectic alloy they don't have phases of alloy melt they are solid or they are liquid you don't get response from them when quick cooling to lock the antimony throughout the lead.
    the SbSn chain is fully part of the matrix and stays in place [which doesn't allow the large bhn changes to take place]
    so yes the alloy goes from the softened state back to it's 18-20 bhn in about a week.

    SLIDE:
    I water dump my coated bullets after I take them out of the oven and let them rest for 2-3 minutes on a steel stool.
    I also stand all of mine up on a tray [about 4-500 at a time]
    I water dump them to insure that I don't have any sticking together.
    but a 15-20 minute soak at 400-f just isn't enough time to let the matrix move within the alloy to gain anything from rapid quenching.

    initially I thought hey,,, 400-f is a good cook temp for oven quenching to gain BHN.
    20 minutes should affect at least part of the boolit and it does but it doesn't allow enough time or depth for the change to take place.

    now if you cooked them for a full hour at say 325 where the powder coat doesn't flow and then turned the heat up to 400-f for the last 20 minutes to cook the powder and bump the alloy's internal temps too
    then you could water drop for a BHN change that would affect the outcome.
    you'd have to wait a full month for a low antimony alloy to show what changes it made and you'd have to experiment a little to get a consistency or a maximum BHN.

    but after talking to Glen Fryxell about it a few times I'm convinced 20 minutes isn't going to allow the changes I and most everyone else expected.
    I was watching a youtube channel where a guy was talking about losing Bhn after cooking at 400 degrees...now this was NOT Linotype. But it was troubling if Linotype exhibited the same behavior. This video was dealing with powder coating, not Hi-Tek. His solution was to coat it at as low a temp as possible, which he determined through experimentation was 250 degrees. That flat won't work for HI-Tek.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTo...l=elvis%20ammo
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  7. #7
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    Allow me to ask a follow-up question for clarity; if I cast and air-cool my boolits (Lee 309-150-F, for example) using straight WW alloy, and get a BHN of 18, and then PC at 400* for 20 minutes and then water-drop them, I will still have a BHN of +/- 18? Is my thinking correct?
    If I cast and WD and get a BHN of 30, and then PC, will I maintain the BHN of 30?
    Last edited by Bloodman14; 09-01-2017 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Add a question.
    Lead Forever!


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  8. #8
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Baking for 20 min then WD gives air cooled results. I cook one hr at 400f then WD for increased hardness. I think I will try the lower temp for an hour then high temp for 15 or so & WD, for HiTek.
    Whatever!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I cook one hr at 400f then WD for increased hardness.
    If I understand this correctly you're saying that leaving the powder coated cast in the oven at 400 degrees for one hour will not affect the curing of the powder coat and will also increase the BHN results. According to LASC that would raise a 10 BHN to 15 BHN after a 96 hour wait period. If this is correct then I think it is worth a try.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Gohon, that is correct. HF red and Smoke's powder.
    Whatever!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
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    I bake for 15-16m @ 400, then water drop the tray. My bullets are just range scrap but do come out harder after the water drop as tested on my CT tester.
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  12. #12
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    Ummm, I kinda would like a direct answer to my question. Giving me general data does not actually help me. Thanks.
    Lead Forever!


    The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms.' If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -Ken Konecki, July 27, 1992

    John Galt was here.

  13. #13
    I dropped from 20 to 16 after baking the powder coat on. It did not return to original hardness.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Bloodman - WD from the mould is 400F to 32F(?) from an alloy that is liquid, ~700F. Grain structure changes with cooling. Fast cooling 'freezes' the grain, locking it's structure. Reheating will allow the structure to 'unlock' some. So - casting , WD, then PC & bake loses some BHN. Depends on time, temp and alloy. No exact answer.
    Whatever!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master



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    Kinda makes sense, popper, thanks.
    Lead Forever!


    The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms.' If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -Ken Konecki, July 27, 1992

    John Galt was here.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator & Official Cast Boolits Sketch Artist


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    Maybe its just me but I use alloy mix that when air cooled is hard enough. If I PC them by the time I load and shoot them they have regained any BHN that was lost by PC them. By what I been told and read a week to a month they will be back to there hardness.
    Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon

  17. #17
    Boolit Master



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    All I really wanted was a simple 'yes or no' answer to my question. If there are no hard and fast answers in this game, we are all flying blind, it seems.
    Lead Forever!


    The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms.' If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -Ken Konecki, July 27, 1992

    John Galt was here.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I don't REALLY want to complicate things anymore than they seem to be, but I thought I read that the amount of Arsenic in the alloy greatly influences the extent to which they respond to heat treating. If memory serves, the content ranges from 0.2 to 1.6%, and even very minute changes in concentration tended to render the bullet alloys more amenable to heat-treating. Did I imagine this, or has someone else run across it?
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    Back to the original post......Why would you need an alloy harder than air cooled linotype?

  20. #20
    Super Moderator & Official Cast Boolits Sketch Artist


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    Its not complicated different alloys react different were all not using the same alloy. Air cool water drop or heat treat will vary from member to member to may factors for a simple yes or no answer.
    My simple answer would be IF air cool then PC in a week to a month you will have the same hardness back.
    No need to water drop them after PC if the air cooled hardness is what you want you will just have to wait awhile.
    Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check