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Thread: inverted hbwc and the webley manstopper bullet

  1. #21
    Boolit Master S.B.'s Avatar
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    A guy down in the Group Buys has a thread offering a Webley style hollow based only manstopper bullet mold, if anybodies interested.
    Steve
    "The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
    Life member NRA, USPSA, ISRA
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  2. #22
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    FWIW:

    I've done a little testing with hb hp bullets in 5 different calibers using 14 different hb molds and hp'ing the bullets with a forster case trimmer/case trimmer & 60* center point drill/45* countersink. Along with swaging my own hb hp bullets. In the high pressure calibers/loads it didn't seem to matter if the bullet had a hb or not.

    In low pressure loads/calibers it got interesting.

    The hb bullets perform extremely well to begin with. Adding a hp to the hb bullet had surprising results. A 429422 hb bullet that was hp'd and loaded in a 44spl/snubnosed revolver combo.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    A side view of that same bullet. As you can see the bullet's base not only compressed in expanded enough to remove the crimp groove and grease groove. Along with flaring out to a larger diameter.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I have a solid base pin for that same 429422 mold and have compared the solid base vs hb with the same hp/load/firearm. That hb hp bullet outperformed it's solid based counterpart.

    Myself along with 1000's of members on this website have shot 44cal bullets for decades. There's always talk about round vs flat grease grooves. Drive bands, 1 grease groove vs 2 or gc/grease groove combo's. I've always looked at recovered bullets to see if my alloy matched the bullet design. The 44spl has been my favorite caliber since the 80's so I've looked at a lot of different 44cal bullets. Several years ago I had a discussion with another member on this website about different pressures/44cal bullet designs. More pointedly the 429421 round vs square grease groove. He was king enough to send me this picture, it show different bullet base compression, look at the grease groove (wide/skinny).
    [IMG][/IMG]

    None of those bullets bases/lube grooves look like that hb 429422 pictured above.

    Shooting that 429422 bullet with a solid based pin and the same hp produces a standard hp expansion but the bullets body/base looks like the traditional bullets pictured above. Shooting the hb bullets without the hp added has a highly compressed grease groove and crimp groove. But no where near as compressed as that hp version.

    I know the fbi "treasury" load was a good 1 with the soft lead hb hp swc bullet.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Just started getting into testing a 358431 hb hp bullet for the snubnosed 38spl. Too many irons in the fire to get too far with it.

    Anyway just something to think about. A hb bullet performs differently when a hp is added. It can clearly be seen on the hb bullets body.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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  4. #24
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
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    You just need a heavy enough bullet & the right HP design. This would work if I just slowed it down another 75fps. Just about right for 45acp.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  5. #25
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    The subject was covered in great depth in Handloader last year (I give them away). They duplicated the boolits and results.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I stopped reading shooting magazines or reloading magazines, never really did read them actually, when some "tactical" magazine did an article on the best way to bullet proof your engine compartment using stuff from the garage.

  7. #27
    I don't think there is there is much doubt that generations of target shots have found the HBWC highly accurate in conventionally throated revolvers of moderate velocity. There is a little more doubt as to why. I think it is because the extreme length of the bearing surface produces better alignment, more than anything to do with sealing.

    But the .455 Webleys, the revolvers though not the automatic pistol, are a special case. It was common for the cylinder throat to be under groove diameter. I measured a friend's civilian Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver, owned only by himself and his grandfather from new, at .455 grooves and .448in. chamber throats. It probably derived from the erroneous belief, in the design of the generally unloved .476 Enfield revolver which preceded it, that full velocity was reached in the cylinder. Or even from cap and ball revolvers, in which it was desirable for the bullet to be a force fit in the chamber.

    An undersized throat, aka oversized grooves, is commonly considered the kiss of death to revolver accuracy, and people earn a good living putting it right. But excellent accuracy was obtained with the Webleys. I think this is the reason for the hollow base, in this case to ensure the seal in the barrel. People do pretty well with really soft flat-base ones, which are acceptable at this revolver's aeroplane velocity. Conversely I would expect poor accuracy, and perhaps danger, with GI hardball in Webleys which have had the cylinder skimmed for use with .45ACP but not the throats enlarged to bullet diameter.

    Efficiency is the ratio of results to input, and it used to be said that with the smoothbore musket as loaded by the military, for every man killed they fired away his weight in lead. The reason for the mechanistic drill which remains fossilised on the paradeground to this day, was the overwhelming advantage of the battalion which could close to wenty yards while the enemy reloaded after a volley used to far less effect at a hundred. When British officers at Fontenoy invited the French to take the first shot, they trusted their men (panic being forbidden), but were actually pretty crafty.

    I'm sceptical about a low-velocity revolver having superior wounding effect to a smoothbore musket. Either the two were many decades ap art, or the musket-armed were far from the elite of those our Indians or yours could put in the field. The best authority I know from the smoothbore era is Baron Larrey, Napoleon's chief of military surgery, who pioneered such advances as fast ambulances on the battlefield and treating friend or foe in order of urgency. Musket-balls broke bones more than a revolver, with much less shattering effect Miniť or lead breech-loading rifle bullets. They tended to produce a bruised and abraded entry hole and a star-shaped exit one, but everything was still there, which isn't the case today. They were also inclined to deflect rather than rupture the relatively exposed arteries of the limbs, which have a tough, rubbery casing.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master S.B.'s Avatar
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    Ballistics-in-Scotland, it is what it is. I think you've over analyzed this thing(HEHEHE)? What works works.
    Steve
    "The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
    Life member NRA, USPSA, ISRA
    Life member AF&AM 294

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check