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Thread: Usefullness for hunting

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Usefullness for hunting

    Im curious here on a few things, and want to get some thoughts on it from those here.

    For handgun hunting, the traditional standard has been that as close to .4x in diameter and at least 200 grains and at least 1,000 fps.

    People have hunted well with 200 grain bullets going as slow as 800 fps. They just didn't take shots at as long of range if they had pushed the 200 grain bullet to 1,000 fps.


    The Harris target loads for military rifles can push 200 grain + bullets to roughly 1300-1500 fps, which is well within the idealized weight/range.

    SO why is the "target" load less effective at hunting with then "uncle buck" cannons 44-40 pushing a 200 grainer swc at 1,000?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master knifemaker's Avatar
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    Are those "target load" bullets spritzer style bullets that you may be comparing with "SWC" style bullets?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    there is no indication of wether they bullets in the harris loads need to be spitzer or flat point.

    And I have seen articles and random internet forum postings of guys using cast spritzers for hunting.

  4. #4
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    An observation, only, the larger dia bullets of 35 and on up seem to do notably more damage than 30cal at similar velocitys. My experience, I am as comfortable with a 41 or 44 bullet at 900 as a 30 @ 1600. A 35 RCBS 200 at 1500 impact looks like a 2400fps wound from 30 150. I think it is the larger flat of the larger dia bullet doing the work. Bear in mind, a 32-40 with a good cast FP at those target velocities killed deer just fine! Just not as forgiving of alloy and bullet shape. Bottom line it's the bullet shape and construction more than velocity( with cast)! Anyway you skin it the bullet placement trumps all.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    An observation, only, the larger dia bullets of 35 and on up seem to do notably more damage than 30cal at similar velocitys. My experience, I am as comfortable with a 41 or 44 bullet at 900 as a 30 @ 1600. A 35 RCBS 200 at 1500 impact looks like a 2400fps wound from 30 150. I think it is the larger flat of the larger dia bullet doing the work. Bear in mind, a 32-40 with a good cast FP at those target velocities killed deer just fine! Just not as forgiving of alloy and bullet shape. Bottom line it's the bullet shape and construction more than velocity( with cast)! Anyway you skin it the bullet placement trumps all.
    And that is the bottom line...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    An observation, only, the larger dia bullets of 35 and on up seem to do notably more damage than 30cal at similar velocitys. My experience, I am as comfortable with a 41 or 44 bullet at 900 as a 30 @ 1600. A 35 RCBS 200 at 1500 impact looks like a 2400fps wound from 30 150. I think it is the larger flat of the larger dia bullet doing the work. Bear in mind, a 32-40 with a good cast FP at those target velocities killed deer just fine! Just not as forgiving of alloy and bullet shape. Bottom line it's the bullet shape and construction more than velocity( with cast)! Anyway you skin it the bullet placement trumps all.
    confirms what I have seen as well .. 35-45 cal flat nosed bullets placed in the engine room put them down.
    Since going to cast bullets for most hunting I have only had one deer go more than 10 yds, most are DRT... Common shot distance is 70-90 yds 5 to 6 deer most years
    shot with 300 Blackout, 30 Herrett, 357 Herrett, 45-70 and 458 socom .. 30 herrett was the one that went about 35-40 yds. nice big 11 ..Heart shot
    all using a 49/49/2 alloy all powdercoated hollow points

    OH I forgot one with the 357 16" Rossi carbine too
    Last edited by Smoke4320; 08-22-2017 at 04:21 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    An observation, only, the larger dia bullets of 35 and on up seem to do notably more damage than 30cal at similar velocitys. My experience, I am as comfortable with a 41 or 44 bullet at 900 as a 30 @ 1600. A 35 RCBS 200 at 1500 impact looks like a 2400fps wound from 30 150. I think it is the larger flat of the larger dia bullet doing the work. Bear in mind, a 32-40 with a good cast FP at those target velocities killed deer just fine! Just not as forgiving of alloy and bullet shape. Bottom line it's the bullet shape and construction more than velocity( with cast)! Anyway you skin it the bullet placement trumps all.
    yeah, i'll agree with that.

    i use a 30-40 krag with a 165gr ranch dog at 1800fps and a 444 marlin with a 280gr wfn gc at 2000 fps(its going to 1700-1800fps). every deer to date has gone straight down. i used to have a 45-70 handi-rifle that i gave to a boy(his dad isn't a hunter) and it did 405gr fbfn with h4198 about 1300fps, he shot 5 or 6 deer and they dropped on the spot, except for 1 doe. she ran about 20 - 30 yards until Death got her.

    this year i want to use my 500L (tc encore/23"MGM barrel) with a 460gr lfn gc at 1200-1300fps and i wish to find the deer dropped.

  8. #8
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    What are you hunting? 90 lb whitetail, 275 lb mule deer? 150 lb either deer. Elk, Moose, Bear?. A lot of small game and varmits get hunted with handguns too. The worst bloodshot meat I ever had in 63 years of life is with a 125 gr JHP in 357.
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  9. #9
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    The 125 JHP 357 is a poor choice for all but the smallest deer. It was designed as a man stopper with explosive expansion and limited penetration; qualities uncharacteristic of a good deer bullet. Bump that to a 158 or even a 180 and the results improve dramatically on well-hit deer. The 125s do wonders on groundhogs, possums, raccoons, and skunks however.

  10. #10
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    Over a Thanksgiving visit a few years ago, I was talking to my cousin about hunting with my 357 gp100. He related his experience with a 6 inch M19 in the early 80s. He told me he shot a smallish buck 3 times in the shoulder because it kept getting up! After a long trail he found it, still alive, and finished with an 06. I think this is where all the bad press comes from, he was using the new super duper 125hp self defense loads. Not a single one made the far side of the chest on that deer! Not the chambering ,problem is bullet choice. He still blames the 357, could not get the idea that the right bullet in the right place is the key ! He placed the shot well but used the wrong bullet. I like heavy end of the range, like an arrow, I want 2 holes per shot.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisleyfan41 View Post
    The 125 JHP 357 is a poor choice for all but the smallest deer. It was designed as a man stopper with explosive expansion and limited penetration; qualities uncharacteristic of a good deer bullet. Bump that to a 158 or even a 180 and the results improve dramatically on well-hit deer. The 125s do wonders on groundhogs, possums, raccoons, and skunks however.
    I confess to not knowing a lot in 1981.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    I confess to not knowing a lot in 1981.
    I was still regrowing burnt brain cells from the summer of 1981. Older Texans know.
    OTOH I've learned to aim for bones with hard cast bullets to break the animal down. A double lung hit will surely kill it but how far will will it travel? I've seen small deer go a long ways with half a heart. Do some testing in newsprint or whatever before you take a cb with no field cred hunting.
    Just my take.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    I confess to not knowing a lot in 1981.

    I thought I was pretty smart in 1981.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisleyfan41 View Post
    The 125 JHP 357 is a poor choice for all but the smallest deer. It was designed as a man stopper with explosive expansion and limited penetration; qualities uncharacteristic of a good deer bullet. Bump that to a 158 or even a 180 and the results improve dramatically on well-hit deer. The 125s do wonders on groundhogs, possums, raccoons, and skunks however.
    The 125 JHP's are indeed great expanders these days, but back when we were still learning how to make good jacketed bullets, and control their expansion, some 125's acted nearly like solids, and some would just about blow up on contact. I did an investigation for the courts on a fellow who'd been shot 6 times in the chest, all with .357's, and all (IIRC) with 125's, though a few may have been 158's. The 125 gr. Rem SJHP's blew up and didn't penetrate deeply enough on this very large person, and the 125 WW's didn't open up until they'd nearly penetrated all the way throgh his very large torso. He lived to face trial for the escape and subsequent crimes! Even a well placed shot MUST reach the vitals. If a bullet reaches the vitals, like a solid or hard cast always seem to do, THEN, expansion increases the damage done, but just "drawing blood" won't necessarily do much of anything. Some have used varmint type bullets on deer, and had them fail to penetrate enough, and lost game with them. I have a buddy who used to shoot long range on some railroad tracks, and he shot a .264 Win. Mag. with 100 gr. bullets. As long as the deer were 300+ yds. away, they worked fine, and the deer went down like you'd jerked a rug out from under them. But he got a shot at what he said was the biggest deer he's ever seen in his life (and this guy has shot more deer than most hunters have SEEN!), at a bit under 100 yds. with that same load. The deer went down as expected, but as he was climbing down to go to it, it got up. He just stood there, convinced it'd go down again, but one leap and it was gone in the bush!

    So THE first criteria for any bullet is that it HAS to penetrate to the vitals and damage them. Once that's done, it sure does help to have expansion kick in to increase the damage level and blood loss. With handguns, the FN type bullets give a lot more "shock" to the nervous system just like when you slam the flat of your hand on the water when in the pool, it smarts a LOT more than when you karate chop the water. And shock DOES matter! FP's are significantly better at transmitting it to a game animal, so they're much preferred. Also, that FP, if driven fast enough and cast hard enough, acts somewhat like a "cookie cutter," and cuts a clean hole through flesh and bone.

    44man once said that he thought deer had one of the best and most powerful clotting agents in their blood of any animal he'd ever seen, and cited instances to back it up that most can identify with. He came up with the idea that the FP bullets, especially those hard cast LBT type bullets, CUT blood vessels and veins, rather than tearing them. Thus, they tend to make deer leak blood faster/better, because a cut vessel isn't stretched out and made smaller, like a plastic straw that's stretched until it finally breaks. The straw's diameter shrinks as it lengthens, until it breaks, and that smaller diameter hole simply won't let blood pass nearly as rapidly as one that's cut with a sharp "knife" or sharp & hard bullet ojive.

    If anyone figures all this out, they're a LOT smarter than I am! I've skinned out and "autopsied" over 300 deer in my time, and I doubt I'll ever figure it all out. But it sure is fun trying, isn't it?

  15. #15
    Boolit Master reloader28's Avatar
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    Blackwater that would have taken me every bit of 3 hours to type up.
    Very good explanations.

  16. #16
    Boolit Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    I confess to not knowing a lot in 1981.
    Me either. And I found it out the hard way myself. Matter of fact, I've learned way more from screwing things up, than doing things right. Good to know I'm not alone.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Deer are like the most nervous ADD/ADHD chipmunk on a crack binge with the muscle power of a Camaro.

    Scientists have officially declared an adult deer can run 100 yards with collapsed lungs. Ive proven they can go 500 yards with the lungs literally blown out of the body.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master rondog's Avatar
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    This one only went about 45 yards.
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    Last edited by rondog; 08-25-2017 at 05:44 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke4320 View Post
    all using a 49/49/2 alloy all powdercoated hollow points
    Is that alloy a typo? If not how hard are they?

    EDIT: Never mind I figured it out. Still new.
    Last edited by BHill; 08-25-2017 at 11:54 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    In my experience heart shot deer go much further than double lung hit deer.
    You'll go far providin' you ain't burnt alive or scalped."

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