22 Lovell variations

[gnoahhh]

Indeed, it's high time somebody did a book on the whole .25-20 Single Shot world from soup to nuts, Stevens to Lovell and everything in between. I would fork over big dollars for a copy (or trade a few pieces of brass)!!

[brian1]

For Reg & others interested, found American Rifleman digitally at : https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.ed...l?id=amerrifle
Also found article in January 1936 issue by Donaldson on the origins of the 25-20SS . Confirmed the .32 Wesson parent (and Lovell's grandparent...haha)
Yup, I'm burrowing into those old American Rifleman issues like a badger into a sand pile. Whooot Whoot !!!
Cheers

That is a fantastic resource. And here I've been saving all my Dad's Rifleman going back into the 50s. Amazing stuff in there. As my Dad used to lament, even 30 years ago, the Rifleman was a hollow shell of what it had once been. Even more so now. Those old ones were really great.

[brian1]

I may try to summarize in writing the method to convert .223 to Lovell and add it to the CD. Still spending too much time reading the e-copies of AR at the moment ..haha.
Cheers

If you need any of the photos I took, or if you need any other photos or details or anything, be sure to let me know.

[TheCounty]

Thanks for the links uscra112, & I have seen similar comments on Donaldson...chuckle.
Also thanks brian, if I need photos I'll let you know. The video is excellent btw.
gnoahhh check your PM
Cheers

[schutzen-jager]

fyi - if you can find a copy of F.C. Ness book, practical dope on .22 published in1947 it has over 10 pages on the cartridge - it has case + chamber dimensional drawings on both the 22-300 + 2R versions - best i could do with photos -

[uscra112]

Amazon has "Practical Dope on the .22" also

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935632808...pf-redir?aod=1

[schutzen-jager]

my copy is going to auction this fall, along with my 6+ decades of books + reference materials - hope it gets the Amazon prices, it was a $7.95 book in 1947 -

[Bent Ramrod]

Frank deHaas mentions some history and his own experiences with the Lovell .22s and the .25-20SS in Mr. Single Shot’s Cartridge Handbook.

Old Harve was a character, all right. But in times where the technology reaches a point where sudden rapid advances are possible, the same ideas will occur to a lot of people “skilled in the art.” Whoever gets into print or gets the patent first is celebrated forever as the Discoverer, and the rest, some of whom may indeed have been into the development earlier, are left in the “fun facts” category for the rest of time. Or to toot their own horns, to the ever-diminishing edification of those having to listen to them.

Stable smokeless powders and noncorrosive, nonmercuric primers enabled easily-workable high-velocity smallbore development. Once those components were available, everybody got on the bandwagon.

[TheCounty]

I do have some of the above mentioned author's articles & excerpts in my files and on the CD I send out.
I do need to do an inventory in the library soon. Always on the lookout for a few of the missing books, but shipping from the USA into Canada usually adds considerable to the cost.
Out of 86 cases obtained in auction recently, 31 in good shape and reloading is in process, 28 were salvageable for a Maximum Lovell with an oversized case diameter at the rim, and of the rest...11 trash and the remainders I will assemble inert for cartridge collectors. Fingers crossed that it is not a steady batch of case head separations.
I've my own tools made up for case removal when the head comes out & leaves most of the case in. The first is a .180 diameter brass peg with a bit of a raised edge on the end to hook on the front of the case mouth. More serious ones return to the bench for a shielded tap to be lightly set into remainder of case and then tapped free with a cleaning rod. Any other cures to share?
Cheers

[uscra112]

.22 Lovell brass life was notoriously short. They were loading a case that was adequate for 15,000 psi to over 50,000 in some instances, like those deHaas mentioned. When G&H had Winchester make a run of brass for them, they made it even thinner, (I've measured it), I suppose in search of more powder capacity. What they were reaching for became reality when Remington introduced the .222, at which point the popularity of the Lovell seems to evaporated.

Brass made from .223 goes the other way. So much so that old published loads have to be reduced by at least a full grain.

BTW Lil'Gun powder, if you can get it, will be kinder to your cases than either of the traditional powders. It has a "fat tail" to the pressure/time curve, imparting equal velocity at lower peak pressure.

[gnoahhh]

Any suggestions (starting point mainly but max too) for Lil Gun in the Lovells, Phil? I've been sticking with 4198, 4227 up until now but was gifted 8 pounds on top of the couple pounds I've been using just for Hornets so I can now see my way clear to expand its use into my Lovells.

[uscra112]

For a 45 grain bullet seated .100" deep, 12 grains to start. About 14 ought to be max. My Krag liked the staring load, so I never went higher. Shocking how many years have passed since that outing.

n.b. That was in Jamison brass, which is thicker than G&H.

[TheCounty]

I did try Lil Gun back in 2004 & starting at 12.5gr went to 13.0 and stopped due to cases separating even though it worked well. I was showing a bit over 2900 ft/sec on the chrony with 45 grain Hornady .223 Hornets. Using 4227 was even worse for case separation, & why I have stuck to using 4198. My notes show that the cases were all WRA 25-20 SS so this may have been part of the issue. If I get to fettling cases from some .223 maybe I shall revisit the Lil Gun.
My fallback is 14.5 gr IMR4198 using the .223 Hornady Hornet bullets. This yields about 2800 to 2850 ft/sec & is quite accurate.
I suspect the old chaps were really compressing the powder when they were getting over 3000 ft/sec. as anything near 15.0 grains does not even fit in the case.
Hate to guess the pressures they were churning up.
As always start lower & work up.
Cheers

[uscra112]

Oh, they were. Dehass speaks of 4198 full to the mouth, then seating the bullet. Quickload figures that at ~55,000 psi with a 50 grain bullet. Fill ratio 111%.

[gnoahhh]

Thanks fellas. "We Band of Brothers must hang together or we'll hang separately." (How's that for mixing metaphors?!)

[brian1]

Amazon has "Practical Dope on the .22" also

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935632808...pf-redir?aod=1

I bought this book. Here are some pages that I thought you all would find interesting:












Apparently the forum software limits how big the pics are, as the ones I posted are twice as big as these. If someone wants the larger, more readable ones, send me your email address

[uscra112]

But some gunsmiths seem to have ignored the drawings, as my original Krag (I now have two) will attest. That one's chamber is only .312 at the base, which gave me no end of trouble the first time I had it out. "Standard" brass would get crowded into the chamber, it being a bolt action, and I had to drive every one out with a range rod, no matter how mild the load. I made a special die to "small-base" the brass for that rifle, and I have to keep its' brass segregated.

BTW my only notes show that I was using 12.0 grains of Lil'Gun in Jamison brass, (which is a little heavier than G&H), 45 grain Hornet bullet.
Avg. velocity 2845 fps, SD 33.95. Not sure of the seating depth, as I was using a gunsmith-made Wilson-type straight-line seater that came with the gun.

[TheCounty]

On the other end of the spectrum uscra112, some of the used cases I shelved for now have a base diameter of .320" and over. I would love to inspect whatever rifle they were used in. Who ever made the reamer gave ample clearance or was not very competent. Should at least have had the capabilities even back then to get the base diameter within a few thousands . Interestingly I also have a dimensional drawing from a site titled "thereloadbench" for the 22 Maximum Lovell showing a .320" base diameter. Not sure where the dimensions came from, but find it odd that they would be that far off the established diameter for the parent case. Possibly someone taylored a reamer using this diagram. A bit of a head scratcher.
Cheers

[uscra112]

It would not surprise me if that turned out to be deliberate. There never was an "established" set of dimensions for the Lovell. SAAMI never accepted it, so it was every gunsmith for himself as far as reamer dimensions went.

Wildcatters were of course scratching and clawing for every bit of powder space they could find. This I think is why the G&H brass is even thinner than the typical .25-20 brass of the period, which wasn't all that heavy itself. (I know - I've weighed and sectioned samples.) Shooters wouldn't get what they wanted until Mike Walker's .222 Remington came out in 1950, after which the Lovell was rather abruptly a dead letter.

Phil

[brian1]

I was looking up some unrelated info (trying to find anything on 5mm Hornet or 40 Krag (not 30-40) cartridges) and came across a couple more Lovell drawings. The book is "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges" by Ken Howell. Most excellent book! Here are the drawings it had for the Lovell cartridges: