22 Lovell variations

[brian1]

I inherited a Winchester 1885 that is stamped
22 R Lovell

I've searched on this and found mostly references to other similar rounds, like
22-3000 Lovell
22 Maximum Lovell
2-R Lovell
22 Lovell

Midway lists 3 versions of dies:
22-3000 Lovell
22 Lovell 2R
22 Lovell R-2

Huntington lists 2 versions:
.22 Lovell R-2
.22/3000 Lovell

Is the 22 R Lovell the same thing as any of the above-listed variations, or are they all something different?

[Trophy Tom]

I believe the differences are in the taper of the case neck.
Not sure but I think the 22-3000
& 22 R Lovell are the same. I'll look in my wildcat cartridge book this morning to check


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bent Ramrod]

Look at your fired cases. The original .22-3000 Lovell had most of the body taper of the original .25-20 Single Shot cartridge from which it was derived.

It was made up especially for a powder called Hi-Vel #3, which was promptly discontinued. People complained that the accuracy or velocity or something of the .22-3000 was not there any more.

A guy named M. S. Risley then made a blown out Version 2.0 of the original Lovell, with about the same neck length ahead of the former taper and a sharp shoulder. This was the .22-3000 R-2 (or 2R) Lovell, which worked with most powders in the 4198 range. This is the most "common" version seen, but remember, there was no standardization and every gunsmith who could grind a half-reamer had his own idea of what the R-2 Lovell "was."

The Maximum Lovell had an exceedingly short neck, and was blown out straight for almost its entire length.

Probably the standard R-2 Lovell dies will work, but they may work the brass a little more or less than your exact chamber dimensions.

I think there are dimensioned drawings of all the Lovells in Landis' 22 Caliber Varmint Rifles.

[marlinman93]

You may want to have someone do a chamber cast to truly determine which version your 1885 is. Then contact the makers of the die sets you're considering and give them dimensions on your chamber casting to see which is closest to your gun's chamber.
Once you've got the die set and sized all your brass, I'd then set my dies to neck size only. This will eliminate working the brass and give you better cases life.

[brian1]

Thank you to all who responded. Very helpful info! I don't have any cases or ammo with the gun, but I will get the chamber cast and go from there.

I also found this posting on another board, which I will share with you:

The "22-3000" (or 22 Lovell) was a wildcat round developed by an American named Hervey (not Harvey) Lovell, about 1934. He accomplished this by taking the "25-20 Single Shot" case which is a bit longer than the regular 25-20 Win case and necked it down with a fairly smooth shoulder to .22 caliber. A bit quicker than the "Hornet", and inherently accurate; it became a common wildcat caliber in the USA and Canada.

In 1937, Harvey (yes Harvey) Donaldson with the help of M. Risley doing the reamer work, created the first improved form of the 22-3000 which became known as the "2R Lovell". The "2R" designation was due to the fact that it was the "2nd reamer" made by Risley that was utilized. Some references to this cartridge call it the 2R Donaldson further confusing the topic. The 2R Lovell has been described as the most popular .22 wildcat ever designed. J. B. Smith and Griffin & Howe of the USA both had factory runs of this ammunition made. (If memory serves me right, contracted to Winchester) . The original cases made from 25-20 SS (up to about 1935 then discontinued) are thin and "incipient head separation" is common and not necessarily signs of excessive high pressure. Later cases from Smith or G&H are much stronger.

The Lovell story does not end there, as various gunsmiths pushed the case development further by moving the shoulder forward & steepening it's angle to gain case capacity. This was known as the "Maximum Lovell"

Many campained Winchester and Remington for the 2R Lovell to be domesticated as a factory cartridge, WW2 came along and such interests obviously hit the backburner. Then in 1950 Remington brought out the 222 which was similar to the Lovell cartridges, only slightly larger and rimless. It is my understanding that the 222 was drawn on its own unique and new brass coin. This pretty much spelled a quick death to the Lovell series and Remington had no royalties or buy-outs to worry about. (Imagine the royalties on the 222/222Mag/and 223 line !!)

Disclaimers on any information following, as it is up to you to verify.
About 14.0 -14.5 grains of 4198 is the maximum you will be able to fit in a case without compression. Do NOT compress load !!! .
Also 4227 was a popular choice but as I got over 13.5 grains and more than 2600fps with 45 grain bullets the heads separated from my old 25-20SS cases nearly every round. These cases are not cheap either.

A fine modern choice that works well in my 2R Lovell is 12.5 to 13.0 grains of Hodgdon's Lil Gun. Again with 45 grain bullets.

As for cases, if you cannot sourse 25-20SS to convert, then try Rocky Mountain Cartridges. Great people who will turn you nicely boxed batches of 20. Although not drawn brass, I've had great success with their products including 2R Lovell.

Custom dies and reloading are of course a must and I went as far as to order a neck collet die from Lee's to minimize working of the brass.

I've gathered quite a bit of data from period publications such as American Rifleman, etc and even have a reproduction of a booklet produced in 1938 by B.L. Smith. Most of this I have compiled onto CD and offer it to those interested for the price of postage and blank CD (totally non-profit for sure).
My personal rifle in 2R Lovell is a Custom Model 8 BSA Martini which I thoroughly enjoy.
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty

[Drm50]

I had a Hopkins & Allen that was rebarreled to 22R Lovell and have had several 25/20 SS. Empty
cases in pic are 22R Lovell, the cartridge with boolit is a 25/20 SS. All my 22Rs formed from Win
25/20 SS.Attachment 202160

[OlDeuce]

I came across this it may help


Ol Deuce

[gnoahhh]

I've owned a few Lovell rifles in my life. Favorite R2 Lovell was a Winchester HiWall w/single set trigger, heavy barrel, built by Jerry Gebby. Such a tack driver it was. My current Lovell is a .22 Maximum Lovell built on a single shot Krag with double set triggers by old Hervey Lovell himself (barrel and stock stamped as such). Such a tack driver it is too.

A couple of observations from shooting Lovell cartridges for almost 40 years now: 1) Don't hot rod them. Brass life is marginal to begin with, without stressing the brass to its limits- and brass isn't common or cheap. 2) Take old loading data published back in the 30's and 40's with a huge grain of salt. Powder formulas and primers have changed. 3) Griffin&Howe brass was and remains superb, but is mainly in hands of collectors now. If you stumble onto some, grab it. 4) The stuff made by Captech (Jamison) is superb, but pricey. Watch rim thicknesses. I've had issues with some Captech .25-20SS Basic Brass in that regard.

I still feel the Lovell-series of cartridges to be a better choice in single shots than .222-family cartridges, but that's me. Plus I no longer have the urge to whack groundhogs on the far side of cow pastures anymore, and punching holes in paper doesn't require the higher velocities of "modern" .22CF's.

[EDG]

I have a 1935 Winchester M70 Hornet barrel that has been re-chambered probably twice.
It is marked 22-3000 Lovell followed by 2R in a different font.

[ascast]

An interesting thread. Bent Ramrod got it in that anybody who could grind a half reamer could chamber a rifle. Standardization would only come after a major ammo/ gun maker picked up the cartridge. I have a Risley rifle he made for my dad that is in 30-06. It is way huge and full sizing brass they last about 2 reloads. It only shot he Sierra 125 grn pills with any thing resembling accurate. That pill would hit chucks at 150yds all day. Nothing else would at 50 yards. Very odd deal from a custom maker.

So the rest of the story. Marion Shirley Risley lived about a mile from me now. My dad courted his daughter for a couple years, as did many others. She was very good looking. She married a more prosperous farmer and moved down the valley 10 miles. I went to high school with his granddaughter and know her well still.

About 1999 or so the mother dies leaving all the farm to the her (the daughter). So, she decides it's time to clean out gramps shop and had an auction. Took two days. Boxes and boxes of actions, receivers, sights, scopes, swords, parts on and on...... whiskey barrels of barrels, barreled actions, stocks, on and on....

It was rumored she grossed over $140k, on the contents of a chicken coop about 20' by 30' . Of course, she gave me no advance notification and I was living 1,200 miles away.

Oh, there were cigar boxes full of reamers as well. Absolutely no doubt the first 2R Lovell reamer was there.

just thought I'd share that story

[uscra112]

I have been a Lovell 22-3000 fan for about 15 years. Done lots of study, have four single shots chambered for the R2 version. Winchester, Stevens, Krag, and a Ballard. Have yet to come up with an original slow-taper rifle to test.

Griffin & Howe brass was indeed made by Winchester. Ditto J.B.Smith's. I have collected, weighed and measured samples of both, along with UMC .25-20 SS brass. Also did the water test for volume. The G&H brass may be better quality metal, but it is NOT heavier or thicker than the old .25-20 brass. Probably because Lovell shooters in that time were after every kernel of powder they could pack in. Today, the best brass by far is Captech International's .25-20 Single Shot, which IS heavier. Enough so that capacity is reduced, and the old time loads must be backed off at least a full grain.

As far as I have found, the variation in the R2 chambers isn't so great as to worry too much about dies. Only oddball I've got it the Krag, which is chambered with the base diameter at .312, so normal .315 brass doesn't fit. I had to make a special die to "small base" a batch for that rifle. The other thing to watch carefully is the neck diameter. This was the era of "tight neck" chambering, and you will find that Captech brass will need to be turned to fit some if not most chambers properly. True of all of mine except the Winchester, barrel relined and I assume chambered by C.C.Johnson.

4198 is still my powder of choice for full-house loads with 50 to 55 grain bullets. I now do lesser loads with 45 grain bullets with Lil'Gun. Cast loads for the Ballard, 52 grain bullet, 2400 works, but I find that Blue Dot is right up there. keep meaning to try a cat-sneeze load with Red Dot, but never have.

[EddieCoyle]

Sorry about resurrecting a year+ old thread, but I found some data for this caliber and figured I'd post it for future use in case anyone might need it.

These pages are from the (Lyman) Ideal Handbook Number 37:

[brian1]

Some people criticize replying to an old thread. I see no problem with it. The info is as good and valid today as it was when the thread was created, even if it was 10+ years ago. Thanks for posting this helpful info!

[Reg]

Never saw this a couple of years ago but am glad to see it now. Thanks for bringing it back. Hope more can be added to it.

[Andy]

Agreed, never noticed this thread back then and glad someone brought it back to the top. I have a lyman tru-line jr die holder that is an odd number, the only reference I ever found to it was in an old chart where it was referred to as being for the 22 lovell.

Based on the info in this thread it sounds like this would fit anything based of the 25-20SS cartridge, is that correct? Are there any other common cartridges that are based of this same case or were the 22 Lovell variations and the 25-20 Single Shot pretty much it?

[uscra112]

The .25-20 Stevens was originally a wildcat based on a now-obscure cartridge known then as the .30 Wesson, made specifically for a revolving rifle that was singularly unsuccessful. Stevens added it to their line in the 1880s, and it was a mainstay for about 40 years. When everything was black-powder, it was very highly regarded for small game, but it became obsolete in the '20s and '30s, as smokeless .22 rimfires filled the small game role.

I know of no other wildcats that were based on the .25-20 Stevens case. By the time Lovell picked it up, the brass supply was already dwindling. Hence the Griffin & Howe brass that is still to be found, actually made by Winchester. Custom loader J.B. Smith also had his own headstamped brass. Varmint shooters wanted more out of the Lovell than it could actually deliver. The G&H brass was even thinner than the .25-20 cases that Lovell used, IMHO to allow another few kernels of powder in the loads, which sometimes hit 50,000 psi according to my studies. Needless to say, brass life tended to be short. The .222 Remington was what they really wanted, and they got it in 1950. We all know where that led.

BTW the Stevens cartridge wasn't called Single Shot until after Winchester introduced their .25-20 WCF. Prior to that, Winchester sold quite a few 1885 High Walls and Low Walls chambered for the Stevens cartridge, but they were marked just "25-20". The cartridge was sufficiently popular that they had to continue it in the 1885, but they weren't about to mark those rifles with a competitor's name, so they marked them ".25-20 SS" to distinguish them from the WCF cartridge they used in their lever actions. The name stuck.

[Bent Ramrod]

Shell holders that fit .25-20 Single Shot and .22 Lovell variants will also fit .32 Short and Long (Colt) rims, .32 Long Rifle, and probably the Extra Long as well.

The .25-20 Single Shot was also the parent case for the .17 Landis Woodsman, one of the very early .17 caliber varmint rounds. C. S. Landis describes his wildcat in his Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles, an underappreciated classic.

Landis might have had the only rifle so made up. I’ve never seen or heard of another.

[gnoahhh]

I too am glad to see this old thread resurrected. Since then I've added another R2 Lovell to my life. It is a "no name" custom, built on a nickel steel '03 Springfield action. Heavy barrel 25" long, 1.125" at receiver ring tapered to .900" at muzzle, 1-12" twist. Timney trigger, bolt face altered by having a steel ring installed to neatly enclose the case head of a Lovell cartridge, extractor hook built up accordingly, no means of ejection- you pluck the fired case out from under the extractor. Single shot, no magazine. No sights, Unertl scope bases only.

Its "original" stock was a much modified '03 Type-C stock, customized by our friend Bubba. (Painted on forend tip and PG cap, among other treats.) But, for $180 how could I say no?. It is now being inletted into a rather nice M2 Springfield stock, a move I'm deliberately taking rather than a fancier custom job- I'm rather enamored of the period "look". I waited until testing before putting any time/money into it. The 1/2" groups it turned in while wearing a 10x Unertl sold me on its potential.

I'll post pics when she's presentable again, even if it means re-resurrecting this post!

Phil, I swear I'm gonna take a drive to Ohio one day for some "Lovell Palavering"!!

[uscra112]

By end of next week I'll have possession of another Krag based Lovell. Low start price and I guess nobody noticed it.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/799158239

I need another rifle like a fish needs a bicycle, but I could not pass it up at the price. Will have to do some scope swapping, but it's already got the blocks.

[gnoahhh]

Nice grab. You came thaaaaaat close to having competition for it!