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Thread: Do you fully agree with your church's doctrine?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    I am pretty much in agreement with all of the teachings of the church to which I belong -- with one exception. They believe that the 6th Commandment is: Thou shalt not kill. I believe it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. Their translation precludes self-defense. Mine does not.

    UKShootist -- I think that the Islamic situation we are facing is certainly a religious war. It is not at all like the Crusades, Christians vs. Moslems, but rather Moslems vs. Everyone else. But their motivation is their religious beliefs.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    The left, communists, socialists, fascists killed far more than any religion.
    Maybe if you lump them all together....?
    They call it "common sense". Why is it so uncommon?

  3. #23
    Boolit Master


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    Questioning is good. It makes us think, and study, and search for answers. Too many search for a "perfect" church but I am not one of them. They are institutions run by men and man can never be perfect. Man cannot even interpret The Word consistently. Most people who accept everything they are told are taking the easy way or are naive. Reasonable men can agree to disagree and still work in harmony for the greater good.
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  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Also well said Don.
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  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    A church's doctrine is a formal outline of key beliefs it holds and teaches. This is different from the way day-to-day business is conducted or even the way minor areas of Scripture are interpreted.

    Finding a church with doctrine you can live with is different than finding a perfect church or even a group of people you enjoy being around.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master


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    I am Catholic, and yes I agree with our churches doctrine, however I do not agree with everything the Pope esposes. Much of what he sayes/claims isnot Catholic doctrine.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by TES View Post
    No...Here's why....I refuse to sit through a sermon and I am told what bad person I am.....then the plate comes around. Also I refuse to buy into an organization that almost all of the worlds wars have been fought over. In other words...if religion was so darn peaceful then why are wars fought over them? In a room full men declaring righteousness by any name who is right? It's the guy that could careless and yes that is an empty church as my avatar.
    I think you missed the point a little. The question was "Do you agree with the doctrine of the church that you attend"; not "Do you hate organized religion in general".

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    UKShootist -- I think that the Islamic situation we are facing is certainly a religious war. It is not at all like the Crusades, Christians vs. Moslems, but rather Moslems vs. Everyone else. But their motivation is their religious beliefs.
    It has been muslims against everyone else since their inception. The Crusades were a war of self defense (they morphed into other things later). We went there and attacked them because they would not stop attacking and harrassing Europe. This is history. It is my opinion that there are no moderate muslims.
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  9. #29
    Boolit Master

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    I don't really see any difference in what we're saying here.....I wasn't disputing history, I was talking more so about modern times. However, the Crusades were armies organized under the Christian banner, raised in Europe by the Catholic Pope, so the wars were arguably Christians vs. Moslems no matter who antagonized who. And, I agree that Moslems who adhere to the strict interpretation of their religion can not be moderate.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fatelk View Post
    I think you missed the point a little. The question was "Do you agree with the doctrine of the church that you attend"; not "Do you hate organized religion in general".
    A church is / are the people...so I don't think I missed the point. This is going back a few decades but the church I attended kinda brought me to this conclusion. I park my camper every weekend that I can in a valley that is quiet. I even meet like minded people that are really laid back and just want to talk about anything. That is my church. Now as far as a religion is concerned...It's the old Ford vs Chevy argument. I drive my hiking boots.
    They call it "common sense". Why is it so uncommon?

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcwit View Post
    I am Catholic, and yes I agree with our churches doctrine, however I do not agree with everything the Pope esposes. Much of what he sayes/claims isnot Catholic doctrine.
    No you don't. Since the Vatican Council I (1869-70), the official dogma of the church is the Pope is infallible. So to disagree with the Pope is to disagree with the teachings of your church.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

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    Currently attending a non-denominational Christian church. Bible believing, right from the book type of thing.
    Not a whole lot to veer from.

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  14. #34
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.
    Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #35
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    Wow! What a question! Personally, I doubt that anyone in any church of any denomination thinks EXACTLY according to every tenet of any particular sect's supposed beliefs. Humans just aren't put together that way. I know for sure that in my own case, I've heard things come from the pulpit that I could NEVER swallow! Admittedly, much of that has come from basically "uneducated" preachers we've had in the "old days." Now, most preachers at least go to some sort of "Bible college" or something, and that has helped, at least a bit.

    I've been a member of a Missionary Baptist church for 55 years now, and I've heard a LOT of sermons, and a few of which I've had to gasp at due to some of the things I've heard from the pulpit. I've heard that all Catholics were hell bound, but I knew that to NOT be the case, because some Catholics I knew reflected MUCH more what Christ tried to model for us, and instruct us to do, than many in my own church. You really CAN fool this ol' boy, but you're gonna' have to do a LOT better than that to do it! I've long loved the old joke about a Baptist who goes to Heaven, and he's being shown around, and in each room, the residents are displaying some notable but acceptable form of behavior. Then he comes to the final door, and sees a bunch of folks all gathered in a close cluster, discussing things aloofly, and he asks St. Peter who these people are, and he's told, "Those are our Baptists. They don't know anyone else is up here!"

    My Bible says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT BE SAVED." I see nothing there that indicates any particular sect of Christianity holds any sort of precedence or preference over any other, do you? I suspect we're ALL a bit skewed in our concepts of God and Christ, and thus, it's by Grace, and Grace alone, that we CAN be saved! They say "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades," but I suspect "close" is about as good as it gets for any of us when it comes to truly understanding our Lord and God. And therefore, I have LONG regarded others and other sects as good sources of information from which I might find out why some adhere to that sect rather than others or my own.

    We're all pieces of work in the making - unfinished until we draw our last breath. And it's a very long walk, for us it seems, to go from the age of accountability to the moment of our death and keep ALL things Christ and God instructed us to do perfectly. Even after making our profession of faith, however our particular sect makes it and prescribes it be done, and any rituals, like baptism be performed, we do NOT - pretty obviously - instantly become "saints." If anything, we become an even bigger target for Satan's many temptations and lures.

    So theology CAN be a great aid to us, OR .... it can be a stumbling block. It can drive stakes between one Christian and another, or it can be discussed sensibly to both's advantage and edification.

    If you ask me, there's WAY too much division between the sects, and WAY too much dissension among them, to please a Savior who only wanted us to LOVE each other. "God is love" is NOT just a quaint saying. It's the Truth! And if we love each other, we'll act VERY differently than Christians often act toward each other when discussing denominational matters or differences.

    And FWIW, I've learned a LOT from Catholic writers. Much MORE than I have from Baptist writers I've read. I like the way the Catholic church works out their official positions fully and in great depth BEFORE they open their mouths about something. And it must integrate with all other accepted theology for it to gain acceptance. That's a pretty good way to form a church, really, even if some (myself included) disagree with some of their tenets or practices. I can't see praying to anyone other than my Redeemer, directly. But I find most Catholic churches, and in particular the older cathedrals, to be very beautiful and impressive structures that amplify the experience of being there. I also find much of their rituals humbling and reinforcing of the qualities that we need to have reinforced regularly within our souls. I find the confessional a redemptive and humbling thing. They say their priests were given the power to forgive sins here on earth by Christ himself, and can make a pretty good case for that, but .... I don't think it's necessary. I DO however, think it's encouraging of us to not forget our tendency to "overlook" our transgressions.

    There's a lot I like in Catholicism, and some aspects of all sects appeal to me as well. But really, I don't think much matters EXCEPT our belief and acceptance of the Lord, and our sincere efforts to keep faith with Him in all things and all people at all times. I don't think any of us DO that, but I think that subsequent forgiveness, upon request and some sort of sign that we're serious, is something we ALL need. Anyone who says that's not true automatically gets my antennae up, and I have to listen hard to them to see what I think their true intent is, and just what axe it is they're grinding.

    But that's just me. I reserve the right at any time to change my take on any or all of this for any reason at all that I deem worthy. Belief is, after all's said and done, an INDIVIDUAL matter, between Christ and each of us. And we can make our decision to accept and follow Him, or not. And I believe Christ and God are WAY beyond our simple mortal mind's capacity to understand, and thus, I believe we all fail to completely and truly perceive Him and His will perfectly. But we CAN be persistent and honorable in our efforts, and humble when we err. If anything, THAT is the REAL mark of a Christian, I think. One who genuinely loves Christ MUST be persistent, because only in persistence do we really have much hope of understanding Him to the maximum level of our personal abilities. And we must also be honorable in our intent, and not devious in any way. Elsewise, we're trying to "trick" the one entity in all that is, that CANNOT be tricked!

    Denominational differences DO exist, BUT ... and this is KEY .... they need not separate one Christian from another, and OUGHT, if fairly considered, be a source of further edification of both parties. My experience is that I've come to understand things as time has progressed, in a different way than I had previously. This is called "growth," and if we're not growing in Christ, we must be diminishing and limiting our own selves, because there's no such thing as "standing still."

    That's my take on it all, anyway. YMMV, and likely does, too. But that's OK by me. Each of us must find our OWN way, and our own style of worship. And closing our minds is the LAST thing Christ would have ANY of us do! So I just try to keep my mind open, make my assessments as seems most indicated to me, and stay open for further change, should it appear warranted. Meanwhile, I just try to walk the walk God wants me to walk. Tending to THAT tends to keep me a lot "straighter" than I'd otherwise likely wind up being!

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    There are fundamental issues to consider. The question of authority, for example. Catholism accepts three equal authorities: Scripture, the infallable pronunciations of the Pope, and Church History. The Reformed cry of "Sola Scruptura" or Only Scripture is a fundamental change. The 'infallable' prouncinations of the Pope have been reversed on at least one occasion, not infallable. Church History includes the selling of indulgences, the selling of the papacy for a roomfull of gold, and giving a woman the power of the Pope. Sorry, I can't accept those as correct.

    We have recently, in the last three years, moved from basically a lifetime as Baptists to a Presbertian Church and have been in a class studying the Westminister Confession for the past months. I have found nothing I would argue with there - I am a Reformed believer.
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  17. #37
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    One other thing about the various denominations and whether we believe the tenets of each of them EXACTLY as stated, is simply that we're all Christians in some stage of development. Not one of us is fully realized, yet, and probably can't be until after we shed these frail bodies we now wear. People at various stages of belief, and who come from different sets of experience and teachings, must inevitably, it seems, latch onto differing priorities within the Christian faith, and thus, we get the multiple denominations or sects of Christianity.

    The only real problem with this, is that if we settle into believing that our particular sect holds all the knowledge and wisdom available within Christianity, we're just fooling ourselves, and thinking what we WANT to think, rather than what the bona fide evidence tends to lead us to conclude. Being a Christian is a life-long process of continuing development, I think, and I've seen nobody I can recall who wasn't still developing. True, some attain a level where they're learning mostly by refining what they have come to believe, but none of us is immune from an occasional epiphany of significant proportions. And I for one thank Almighty God for that! He's been SO very good to me, even when I wasn't all that good to or for my own self! Blessed be His holy name forever!

  18. #38
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.
    This is correct, Char-Gar is wrong!
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  19. #39
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.
    Like your Sig Line says, "your opinion"!
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  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Char-gar, I guess my ideas of secular are the Pope's remarks about the hypocrisy of Christians who invest in or manufacture guns. Not a matter of faith apparently as he is protected by armed guards. His views about climate change and economic issues align more with leftist ideology than scriptural exegesis. But your points is well taken.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
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