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Thread: Do you fully agree with your church's doctrine?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Papal infallibility, referenced earlier, is actually a very rare circumstance that is encountered. The restrictions imposed on it's actual use preclude any idea that it is some sort of everyday action or decree that dictates changes and beliefs from the sitting Pope.
    If anyone is actually interested in learning more about "Papal Infallability" there is a pretty good treatise on it here.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

    I do not agree completely with any preacher, minister, priest, or philosopher that I've ever encountered, but that doesn't prevent learning something occasionally from each other... maybe even challenging certain ideas with simple truths... All in all, we can probably all learn something if we keep an open mind.

  2. #42
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    From the article linked to above:

    Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."


    It would seem to me many of the things the current Pope has commented on would fall under the category of moral proclamation. Such as "People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian."

  3. #43
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    That would have nothing to do with Papal Infallability.
    The Pope's personal opinions are separate from "infallability", which is clearly described if you read the entire text included in the provided link. The criteria required for recognized authority is actually very restrictive... which might explain why the "Infallability" doctrine can't be cited more than once in several hundred years.

    Cherry-picking historical documents, or research papers, is very similar to cherry-picking Biblical texts, in that it often leads to completey false assumptions and conclusions that are totally wrong.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    Cherry-picking historical documents, or research papers, is very similar to cherry-picking Biblical texts, in that it often leads to completey false assumptions and conclusions that are totally wrong.
    You got me there. I didn't read the whole article. It seems like a very complicated idea.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.
    They both faith and social issues.
    That being said, the Pope is not my boss or intercessor to Jesus Christ. The pope is a man and fallible. Look at the politics, manipulation, and intrigue that surrounds the election of a Pope. All secular and worldly.

    Shiloh
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiloh View Post
    ...the Pope is not my boss or intercessor to Jesus Christ. The pope is a man and fallible....
    If you have ever prayed for anyone (loved ones, family, friends, peace for mankind's benefit...) you have attempted to intercede for others with prayer.
    If you believe that your prayers were ever heard, you believe that you were indeed an "intercesser".
    If you've ever asked for prayers from anyone for yourself, or anyone else, you have asked for "prayers of intercession".
    Whether any of those prayers were ever answered the way you might have hoped has nothing to do with whether or not you accept the idea of "intercession".

    Every person I've ever met proclaiming to be religious has offered and asked for these sort of prayers, and therefore practice and accept "intercession" from others as a basic part of their belief system, whether they will admit it or not.
    These are simple truths that many claim they don't accept, yet they pray for others and thank those that pray for them.
    The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
    It's not complicated.

  7. #47
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    The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
    It's not complicated.

    I ask in humility. Then why have a Pope?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
    It's not complicated.

    I ask in humility. Then why have a Pope?
    Why have a pastor, a bishop, priests, or elders?
    Why have a President or Prime Minister?
    The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church, chosen by the "elders" of that religion to be their leader... I see similarities in every organization or religion, it's only that some limit themselves to smaller arenas.
    The Pope exists because the people he leads for his brief time as the head of that religion WANT a structured organization... Without the structure Catholics maintain, their religion would become fractured and offshoots would branch off proclaiming their own superior knowledge and understanding... Catholics maintain unity with their system, and anyone is free to leave.

    There are other religious people sharing the same texts that have split into dozens of separate denominations, hundreds if you count tiny independents... Is that better?
    Possibly so, but each decision should be a personal choice respected by others.
    I believe if many "Christians" understood each other as well as they would like to think they do, a lot of commonly encountered discussions would disappear to the waste bin of history.

  9. #49
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    Thank you for your explanation.

    I guess you'd have to put me into one of those groups that believe congregations should be autonomous from one another. Being from the buckle of the Bible belt I guess I take it for granted the choices I have. There is an assembly on every other country road and every third block in town!

  10. #50
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    You're welcome.
    I guess I should make clear that I am not a practicing Catholic, and do not claim to belong to any particular established religion. I believe ALL religion promoting peace, charity, harmony, and Love are good things... Now, if only we could get more people to follow those teachings!

    I think questioning "knowns" is a good thing, some would disagree... and many have.
    I don't think I need anyone to enlighten me, believing enlightenment is within each of us.
    I come to what some might consider odd conclusions occasionally, but at least I'm interested enough to put in the effort to try to understand things that confuse me... and am occasionally successful.
    I have yet to meet any preacher, or find any church, that I agree completely with the things I hear from them... but I'm willing to listen at times... less now than 40 years ago, but still trying.
    That was the original question, "fully agree".
    Last edited by cainttype; 08-20-2017 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #51
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    FWIW, if anything, I think the Catholic doctrine of the Pope's unerring judgment is as much if not more of a matter of "Somebody's GOT to make a decision," and the simple fact that faith, REAL faith, CANNOT be a mass of indecision. It MUST be clearly delineated and stated, even if it has to be "corrected" or "clarified" at a later date. That's not what "infalibility" means in the dictionary, but like most human communication using words, the INTENT is sometimes overshadowed by the limitations of a word's "natural" content, and maybe most especially when it comes to the words we use in TRYING to relate matters of Faith.

    So I for one, give the Catholic church a pass on that one. And if we spent NEARLY as much time trying to understand each other, as we do in finding things to divide us, we'd be a REAL force to be reckoned with! I've heard all sorts of things about the Catholic church, none of which stand up to real scrutiny, and maybe at least a good portion of it BECAUSE of exactly what this thread's title says. It's about "doctrine," and much of our own doctrines, no matter what sect we adhere to, cannot be effectively put forth in simple words. It's the meaning BEHIND the words that is so easily missed by so many who read them, often with the specific INTENT to criticize a fellow believer's thoughts or practice.

    I personally, see this as a BIG mistake, and one that all of us have probably made at some time or another. I know I have! When reading about another's faith, we need to, but find it VERY difficult to actually DO, ask some questions when we encounter an element or statement of doctrine in another sect's Faith. If we did that, instead of going off half-cocked, and proclaiming that WE KNOW what words mean .... well, it'd probably change Christianity and make us once again a VERY powerful force, instead of the wimpy, divided and sometimes even pompous lot that we've become today! And if that offends anyone, please know that I'm "chief among sinners" here, and it's more of a confession than an accusation! So make whatever you want of my words. The meaning BEHIND them is as pure as the purest gold, I assure you. Christ bids us to confess our sins and errors. It's the world around us and PC philosophy that bids us stand above and beyond those around us!

    PC has indeed crept into many, Many, MANY folks' theology, and they don't even know it! God help us! We are VERY inept at helping ourselves! Which is why He came down from Heaven to die on a cross and shed his precious and perfect blood as an atonement for our collective and individual sins! I'm a sinner, saved by grace, and if I can't allow a fellow believer a dissension or two when it comes to doctrinal definitions ..... well, then I don't believe I've really "heard" the words Christ left us to live and go by. And that, my friends, would diminish me greatly, and I've done quite enough of that myself in the past, thank you! From here on out, I'll accept any professing Christian as a believer, and leave the rest between them and our Lord. If they believe it, they MAY change their mind, and if they don't, at least they're on OUR side! And that covers a LOT of "sins" in my book!

    Sectarian battles and tiffs are about as "Christian" as peeing in church, IMO! We were once a "live and let live" nation, at least generally. Our "modern" world seems to demand, along with PC philosophy, that EVERYTHING be standardized, and outlined, and clearly stated in the simplest words possible. Yet even a "blind man" can see that this inevitably obscures MUCH of ANY real faith or religion!!!

    As Shakespeare said, "What fools these mortals be," and again, I'm "chief among sinners here, so if you're offended by that, just think how I feel!!!

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    Questioning someone's interpretation of a biblical/religious/historical text is not the same as questioning the text.
    Interest and intelligence would demand questions if someone provided an explanation that differed from what you clearly understood... It's the price you pay for using the brain God gave you.

    Perhaps it's those that don't have questions that are missing the simple things that are boldly stated... obscured by tradition and things that just "sound good".
    Questions lead to understanding, understanding leads to knowledge, knowledge leads to acceptance... hopefully.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Without questions, there is no knowledge... No reason to open any book.
    Without "Grey" matter, there is no "Black and White"... How would you know the difference?

    Every person seeking knowledge has questions.
    When questions cease to exist, enlightenment and learning will die with them.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master


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    The Bible was not in the common mans hands until about 1500- 1600 AD. Since that time there has been an explosion of church "rules",denominations, and doctrines. I conclude that most is man made based on ignorance, prejudice,power and tradition. Men and churches get hung up on a lot of non-essentials for salvation. When there is a dispute, I research the subject and come to my own conclusion based on the scripture. If someone wants to hear my conclusion then I will share what my understanding is. I can not take an absolute position( except on some of the basics) because I am a man and fallible. I can not always be right. When in doubt read and pray.

  15. #55
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    That is historically incorrect... The Pharisees were actually a middle-class group that were popular with the common people. The Sadducees were the wealthy, well-educated upper class that held the main power in Jewish society... There were many others that could read, and many languages with well-established literature (Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc...).

    I guess a simple "question" that might arise would be, "If only the Pharisees could read, who wrote the texts they read from?".
    That's the good, and bad, of questions... They may lead you to knowledge, but they may destroy misconceptions you are comfortable with.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    This is quite true. For a considerable time, the Pharisees were the only group who were able to read, and thereby interpretate scripture.
    This is, again, simply incorrect.
    Pointing out a simple mistake on your part has nothing to do with questioning "the entire Old Testament".
    Questioning the conclusions drawn by others is far from questioning the text they might be attempting to explain.
    I'm more than happy to carry on seeking answers, while others can comfortably retire knowing everything that matters to them.

  17. #57
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    Caintype, you're right, but the Saducees and Pharisees had nothing to do with writing the Bible. The Bible seems to have been constructed from collections of letters and manuscripts in about 300 A. D., IIRC, and the Saducees had nothing to do with it. The common man, for the first 1500 years of Christianity's existence, had to be TOLD what was written, and what it meant. And yes, any time man's hands get into the mix, there's going to be problems. But amazingly, the Bible as we know it seems to have been VERY largely verified by some of the oldest texts we have available to us now. What an amazing book! It's survived 20 centuries virtually intact! Yes, there are still questions/arguments about how a few words are interpreted, but ..... gee golly wow! What a record of being virtually unchanged for 2,000 years!!!! If that's not amazing, what could be?

    And you're right about questioning, too. It's just sad when we see so many letting questions lead to argument and vehement disagreements and dissension. But that'a man's hand in it all, NOT God's! God never has and never will change. We, on the other hand, seem to change our minds at the least sign of a wind blowing in another direction!

    The more I learn about the Bible, and the meaning behind its words, the more humbled I am, and the less I tend to want to argue points. Discuss, yes. Question, yes. But not really argue them. Arguing has become governed by PC theology today, that says that arguing and not just accepting what one says is "disrespectful." But nothing could be further from the truth! Arguing with another is an act of faith and trust in THEM! Not all our faith and trust is well placed, it seems, but that's because of US, and NEVER due to any lacking in God, Christ or the words they left us to live by. It's SO very human to argue. It's so very GOOD to discuss and question! Modern philosophies seem to discourage all discussion and questioning of others' theologies and theological ideas and interpretations. And we are ALL so VERY much the poorer for that! Good discussion CAN be the best of ways for us to further our edification about God's words, IF only we'll simply allow it to be. That's my take on it all, anyway. YMMV?

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Blackwater, several posts have been removed between what is now shown as posts #51-#56. Each post shown now was a reply to those missing posts addressing specific points.
    The "Pharisees" issue was brought up by someone else, and had nothing to do with The New Testament.

    Now, to address your post...
    1) The Bible was hand-copied "because" the printing press had not been invented until The Gutenberg Bible began the age of mass production printing of Bibles.

    2) The hand-copied Bibles were written in Latin "because" Latin was the ONLY universal language at that time (similar to English today) and if you wanted to SHARE the text with the most people possible, Latin was the only way to do it (think Roman Empire here).
    Latin is also a very accurate, concise language... That's why it still dominates scientific studies like biology and medicine in every format.

    3) Using things like The Dead Sea Scrolls (which by the way, were not written by the Pharisees [the only people that could read, remember???]) to verify the accuracy of texts in your current Bible "prove" the accuracy of the Latin it was witten in for over a thousand years... It also destroys the lie that someone was trying to "hide" anything.

    These are simple truths, although many have been taught (and accepted) a very different point of view, that are obvious when considered on their merits.

    Again, I'm in favor of all religions promoting peace, compassion, and Love for humanity (and the rest of God's creations).

  19. #59
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    Thanks, Caintype. I never look at the post numbers, so missed that. It's SO good to be here where even mistakes are lovingly corrected .... at least usually. Human frailties will always be the biggest factor in our fight to learn from each other, I believe. And we all seem to have them. I do in abundance sometimes!

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude View Post
    I do indeed, I will offer my opinions on your questions, you can accept them, or reject them as you chose, without discussion.

    1. The Holy Spirit manifestation of Pentecost was indeed a different matter, The confusion, if there is any comes from the mistaken notion of being born again, as opposed to being born from above. A short summation, when our fathers sperm enters our mothers egg and a new creature is formed, our spirit is sent by God from heaven to reside in that creature, hence, we are born from above. All, must be born from above to be born of the flesh to die once. The exceptions would be the angels of Jude 1:6 who decided to thumb their noses at God and earned a death sentence for refusing to stay in their first estate.

    Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    2.The final end of those who refuse to believe, is indeed complete annihilation, the punishment being eternal, the punishing being swift and final. Rev. 20 will cover it pretty well, and one must understand "Blotted out" and what it means, totally erased from time, for and aft, as though it never existed. So when one is blotted out from the book of life, they cease to be, they cease to have been, there is no memory of them to cause pain and suffering to those who remain. Rev 21:4

    3.In short, If God forgives our trespasses, and makes us new again, and remembers the sin no more, why do people think they are somehow better than God and refuse to forgive the divorcee and let them move on with their lives. Perhaps hypocrisy, perhaps ignorance, perhaps the inability to throw out the old leaven and move into the light.
    I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, then Indepentant Baptist, then AG.
    I agree with you about divorced people not being able to hold office in the AG church.
    I believe the scripture that they took that from, be the husband of but one wife means that he shouldn't have two or more wives which was a common practice in that day. I don't believe it is in reference to divorce.

    I believe born again is a separate experience from receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    I'll leave out scripture and relay personal experience.
    I was Saved, Born Again a number of years before I recieved the Holy Spirit. And I was Southern Baptist at the time.
    It took me digging into the Word and trusting in God to change my mind from my Southern Baptist teaching. BTW, I never went to a Pentecostal Church before I baptized in the Holy Spirit. I recieved that gift while about 100 miles offshore praying alone in my room one evening.

    There are many things that I disagree with concerning some of the main line denominations.
    AG is the closest as far as main line to what I believe the Bible teaches.
    I have found some non denomination churches that are closer.
    Last edited by Down South; 09-24-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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