Why BH 209?

[NSB]

I don't think the inline shoots better or farther. in the old days they would shoot 200 rods{ 220 yds.} which was the norm. they shot farther then that also.

My Savage ML2 will shoot sub 1moa, shoots a bullet at over 2400fps, and can easily kill a deer at 300 yds. I've owned a number of TC Hawkens, and CVA sidelocks that couldn't even come close to that level of performance. If you think any off the shelf sidelock can do that, you need to get out more. There simply isn't any comparison at all. Most side locks are shooting very well if they do 4" at a hundred yards. Any Savage or Knight that did that would be going back to the factory to get fixed. They're apples vs oranges when trying to compare them. You really can't lump them into the same type of rifle. Side locks are nice, but they are just grossly less capable. That's the reality of it.

[rodwha]

I don't know about any off the shelf sidelock but I've seen the results from some T/Cs and Lyman Great Plains Hunters. I'm still wet behind the ear here but I do know some inexpensive sidelocks are certainly capable once accurate loads have been developed. There's even some PRB rifles doing amazingly at 200 yds, and I know the match rifles will easily do that.

Now I'm not about to spend the money custom or match rifles cost as we typically prefer to spend our money on experiences rather than things, and I don't require that kind of accuracy anyway. 200 yds is more than plenty for me, especially as I haven't killed anything beyond about 80 yds anyway. But I'd like something I can hunt fields with, especially as most places here require you to hunt from blinds on private property with others out there as well. But when I've been the Lone Ranger in a parcel of the lease I've stalked around instead of eating a proper lunch. And a .270 Win was the typical rifle I used which is more than capable of long shots.

[rodwha]

Oh, to clarify, these off the shelf cheaper sidelocks may not be sub MOA but are still plenty accurate for hunting at 200-300 yds. I'm not talking about match quality but of 4-6" groups at those ranges and not just at 100 yds.

I haven't worked with my 24" 1:48" twist Deerstalker enough but with a 320 grn REAL I got a 1/2" group at 50 yds. Not enough to say what it can do and be counted on doing as I didn't shoot it enough, but then I also never worked up a load either but just used the typical 70 grns (likely ~75 grns weight) of 3F Olde E that I had been using to break in my new rifle with PRBs. Just curious what shooting a conical was like.

Maybe this is because BP just isn't as tolerant of the variables?

I know many long range hunters/shooters will buy drop-in barrels for several hundred bucks.

[rodwha]

Check out what the NMLRA shoots show. Sidelocks do quite well. Granted I don't know of anyone using an off the shelf Lyman or T/C but it does show just what sidelocks do. Much better than your online for sure.

[NSB]

I've been shooting muzzle loader for almost fifty years and I've owned and shot a good number of them. I can tell you for a fact that very few side locks will even shoot three inches at a hundred yards. Once in a while someone will do that with a three shot group, but it's not a normal occurrence. Very, very few of them could even hit a deer at two hundred yards. The bullet drop on a patched round ball is around two feet at that distance. I knew some of the better shooters in the country who used to go to the National shoot for these guns and one friend (now deceased) made his own guns and sold guns around the country. I shot with him several times and he couldn't do the things you're saying can be done commonly. If you're new at this I will assume you'll learn more from experience. After you've learned a great deal more you'll be able to post more realistic comments on side lock capability. I understand about some people doing outstanding things at very long ranges. They've shot six inch groups at six hundred yards with open sighted single shot black powder rifles at big shoots. However, that's one person out of ten thousand who can do that on a once in a while occasion. They don't do it every time out and the other 99.999% of people who own these guns NEVER do it. I like side locks and I've shot them a lot. They just don't do the things you think they'll do in anyone's hands except a few rare individuals. For the average Joe, it's NEVER going to happen.

[ShooterAZ]

NSB, your experiences with sidelocks and inlines mirror mine. I have both and enjoy shooting and hunting with both. But just for grins I wish that rodwha would just load his sidelock up with some BH209 and a magspark. I'd like to see the bore of his rifle after he pushes a Lee REAL out of it at 2300fps+. I'd also like to see his target. If he decides to do it, hopefully he will report back...or not.

[idahoron]

I've been shooting muzzle loader for almost fifty years and I've owned and shot a good number of them. I can tell you for a fact that very few side locks will even shoot three inches at a hundred yards. Once in a while someone will do that with a three shot group, but it's not a normal occurrence. Very, very few of them could even hit a deer at two hundred yards. The bullet drop on a patched round ball is around two feet at that distance. I knew some of the better shooters in the country who used to go to the National shoot for these guns and one friend (now deceased) made his own guns and sold guns around the country. I shot with him several times and he couldn't do the things you're saying can be done commonly. If you're new at this I will assume you'll learn more from experience. After you've learned a great deal more you'll be able to post more realistic comments on side lock capability. I understand about some people doing outstanding things at very long ranges. They've shot six inch groups at six hundred yards with open sighted single shot black powder rifles at big shoots. However, that's one person out of ten thousand who can do that on a once in a while occasion. They don't do it every time out and the other 99.999% of people who own these guns NEVER do it. I like side locks and I've shot them a lot. They just don't do the things you think they'll do in anyone's hands except a few rare individuals. For the average Joe, it's NEVER going to happen.

For the most part I am going to agree with you to a degree. I don't shoot 100% factory rifles so I can't say for a fact. But I do think that there are a few factory rifles that will beat 4" groups regularly with Peep sights, and the right load.

I think that the Lyman Great Plains Hunter is capable of shooting sub 4" groups on a regular basis. In fact I know some guys that are getting sub 2" groups with them and Paper Patched bullets.
Another one that I think can shoot under 4" groups is the Pedersoli Missouri River Hawken. I honestly believe that rifle can do much better than sub 4" at 100 yards. But I don't know for sure since I have never shot them.

My rifles are not factory by any stretch of the imagination. Can I shoot sub 1" groups every time? NO I can't but I have shot some. I am using peep sights and that limits me a lot. I can say that I am pleased by any rifle that will shoot sub 2" most of the time. I have shot many groups that are well under that but I haven't really shot groups for years. I found my loads, got great groups, and went to shooting steel practicing for hunting.
Most of the time I am shooting with cross sticks. I have shot some sub 1" groups with mine off a bench, and yes they were three shot groups. Really I don't see the need of more than 3 shots. If I am hunting all I am looking at is the first shot. I have needed a few second shots, but the third shot is never needed. That is why I do 3 shots, it should be more than I ever need. If the gun behaves the same way every time with 3 shots that is good enough for me.

That said I took a good friend of mine out shooting a couple weeks ago. Mike is a pistol shooter, and hardly ever shoots a rifle. He does own a side lock muzzleloader rifle but has never shot it. Mike doesn't hunt. In fact if he wanted to hunt with me he would have to take hunters education. He does not shoot rifles. I took mike out to shoot my Hawken. I made a video of his range time.

https://youtu.be/NInQ--GAimo

[ShooterAZ]

Hi Ron, there is no doubt that sidelocks can be made to shoot accurately with paper patched bullets. You have proved it, I've watched your videos. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you using pyrodex p, or did you switch to BH209? The Op specifically asked about BH209. No disrespect intended but we are still discussing apples and oranges and now pineapples. I'm trying to see the relevance to the thread.


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[Edward]

NSB, your experiences with sidelocks and inlines mirror mine. I have both and enjoy shooting and hunting with both. But just for grins I wish that rodwha would just load his sidelock up with some BH209 and a magspark. I'd like to see the bore of his rifle after he pushes a Lee REAL out of it at 2300fps+. I'd also like to see his target. If he decides to do it, hopefully he will report back...or not.

Do not know why anyone cranks lead at 2300 FPS as I never do in either sidelocks or my Sharps 74 ,try to keep it 1200-1300 FPS and with the Sharps I"m out to 700yds and the Renegade 400yds. BH209 works fine in either . The reason I am shootin OE 2F/3F is 209 is way expensive and I shoot every day at a private range on club grounds (short range is 200) and long is 700 ,I learn slow but repetition helps along with this site I keep busy trying . Point is Magsparks work in sidelocks and my underhammer using regular CCI primers ,shame you don "t believe it but I will try to get some photos for your entertainment next week . Till then have fun /Ed

[charlie b]

The accuracy at range of a muzzleloader is strongly dependent on the twist of the rifling.

Most inlines have a very fast twist while most sidelocks have a slow twist. Comes from historical use. Most sidelocks were designed to shoot round ball (which works best with a very slow twist) or minie bullets (which can handle a slightly faster twist). So, the reproductions typically have a 1/48 or slower twist rifling. The 1/48 (I think pioneered by T/C) was intended to shoot both RB and the short bullers (Maxi Hunter and such). These are all good for relatively short ranges, ie, out to 200yd.

It is not such a bad thing since in real hunting situations the bullet drop beyond that takes a person very skilled at range determination to hit a target. Easy on the rifle range, not so much when in the field.

Introduce sabot bullets. These showed that you could get some higher velocities using bullets with better aerodynamics. The push came for longer bullets and the inline mfgs responded with faster twists.

There has always been a lesser known category of muzzle loaders, typically referred to as the target or match rifles. Those sidelocks that were made with faster twists to shoot long bullets. These did not find a lot of favor due to a lot of factors, one being recoil. Most hunters did not want to shoot a gun with that much recoil. Compounded by the difficulty in finding an accurate load.

Green Mountain kinda filled the gap. They made fast twist replacement barrels for the sidelocks so you could shoot sabots or long bullets accurately. Then Lyman (Interarms) came out with the faster twist barrels for sabot bullets as well.

So, you can get a sidelock to shoot as well, or better, than an inline. At that point the difference is determined more by the shooter and his load development than by the type of rifle.

PS I am one of those who learned a lot in here and other forums about making sidelocks shoot well. My Lyman GPH will shoot less than 2" at 100yd with at least three different bullets. If I could see the targets well enough I am confident at least one of those loads would be good to 300yd.

[NSB]

You guys need to visit Dougsmessageboard.com and learn something about smokeless muzzloading, using sabotless muzzle loaders, etc. You can't even believe what can be done with a 45cal and shooting sabotless. Lots of defenses responses for sidelocks, and I'll be the first to say they've come a long ways, but.....they simply aren't even in the same league as the better in-lines of today. Again, it's apples vs oranges.

[rodwha]

The accuracy at range of a muzzleloader is strongly dependent on the twist of the rifling.

Most inlines have a very fast twist while most sidelocks have a slow twist. Comes from historical use. Most sidelocks were designed to shoot round ball (which works best with a very slow twist) or minie bullets (which can handle a slightly faster twist). So, the reproductions typically have a 1/48 or slower twist rifling. The 1/48 (I think pioneered by T/C) was intended to shoot both RB and the short bullers (Maxi Hunter and such). These are all good for relatively short ranges, ie, out to 200yd.

It is not such a bad thing since in real hunting situations the bullet drop beyond that takes a person very skilled at range determination to hit a target. Easy on the rifle range, not so much when in the field.

Introduce sabot bullets. These showed that you could get some higher velocities using bullets with better aerodynamics. The push came for longer bullets and the inline mfgs responded with faster twists.

There has always been a lesser known category of muzzle loaders, typically referred to as the target or match rifles. Those sidelocks that were made with faster twists to shoot long bullets. These did not find a lot of favor due to a lot of factors, one being recoil. Most hunters did not want to shoot a gun with that much recoil. Compounded by the difficulty in finding an accurate load.

Green Mountain kinda filled the gap. They made fast twist replacement barrels for the sidelocks so you could shoot sabots or long bullets accurately. Then Lyman (Interarms) came out with the faster twist barrels for sabot bullets as well.

So, you can get a sidelock to shoot as well, or better, than an inline. At that point the difference is determined more by the shooter and his load development than by the type of rifle.

PS I am one of those who learned a lot in here and other forums about making sidelocks shoot well. My Lyman GPH will shoot less than 2" at 100yd with at least three different bullets. If I could see the targets well enough I am confident at least one of those loads would be good to 300yd.

Actually some original Hawken rifles built by the Hawkens brothers had a 1:48" twist.

[rodwha]

I like more traditional types of muzzleloaders and intend to one day get a flintlock to work with. I'm not really a purist but inlines and such just seem too much like that .270 Win. Granted my Lyman Deerstalker has a recoil pad and fiber optic sights (that I'll be replacing with more typical sights, likely from their Trade Rifle that I intend to have reamed to 28 ga).

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

The 1:48 twist is a fine twist for patched round balls. This is from 100 yards with a Traditions St.Louis Hawken .50cal shooting 70gr Pyrodex P, .490" round ball and a .020" patch.

[Squeeze]

the long range sidelocks, and slow twist roundball barrels are a different thing. long range shooters use fast twist barrels, and big lead conicals. They are in no way handicapped against most inlines, even with optics. Some of these guys shooting the top level matches can do amazing things with a peep, or open sight systems. I do have some smokeless capable guns, that in the right hands, are in a different league, but thats really apples to oranges comparison. I usually shoot Blackhorn out of these guns anyway, and truthfully, without the optics, are almost in the same category as the long range sidelock guys. fundamentally they are all just front stuffers with different types of ignition. I shot sidelocks for years, then drifted to the inlines, and even the smokeless. the new breed smokeless customs are designed around a much bigger pressure rating, and Ive seen several that outperform their centerfire equivalents.

edit: (no case size powder limitations)

[charlie b]

Thanks for that correction rodwha.

I would still submit that the difference between a sidelock and inline will be more due to shooter than gun (given same barrels, ignition and equal quality locks/triggers).

Bottom line is that sidelocks have the reputation of poor long range accuracy due to so many of them made with slow twist barrels.

[mooman76]

I'd say more like side locks have a bad rep from so many new beginners thinking they can pull one out of the box stick a patch and ball and some powder, first of coarse down the barrel and that's all there is too it. Takes allot of load development with many, many variations to find the very best load to shoot in each gun to get the very best accuracy. I must admit I have never took things this far myself with any of my guns but my accuracy is quite acceptable for what I want. Just shooting and having fun.

[idahoron]

Hi Ron, there is no doubt that sidelocks can be made to shoot accurately with paper patched bullets. You have proved it, I've watched your videos. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you using pyrodex p, or did you switch to BH209? The Op specifically asked about BH209. No disrespect intended but we are still discussing apples and oranges and now pineapples. I'm trying to see the relevance to the thread.


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I am shooting Pyrodex P but I was specifically addressing the gentleman about sidelocks not being able to shoot under 4" groups. I know I strayed a bit from the OP, but I think it was relevant to speak to that post.

[rodwha]

I am shooting Pyrodex P but I was specifically addressing the gentleman about sidelocks not being able to shoot under 4" groups. I know I strayed a bit from the OP, but I think it was relevant to speak to that post.

And you do that well with peep sights. Imagine how much smaller a group could be if it were more apples to apples using a Malcolm style scope.

[rodwha]

Regardless my interests aren't in inlines but propellants for my sidelock.

Ultimately it seems as though BH209 is great for a reload after firing without concern for removal for immediate cleaning, and less smoke so as to better keep an eye on the animal, along with much less swabbing, though it requires smokeless solvents to clean, 209's to fire, and the cost and need for a separate powder flask.

But then Olde Eynsford is consistent as well, is compatible with my other BP guns, and is much cheaper but needs more swabbing.

Does BH 209 have a shelf life once opened as some substitutes are said to have?

I have primer capsules for my ROA that uses large primers. This is a great idea to me as for a time I couldn't find percussion caps (thankfully I had a small stockpile). And so it seems a Mag Spark (or large primer) adapter is also a good idea in case this happens again. But then the same argument could be made for a flintlock (too bad the barrels don't just drop in).