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Thread: 40-82 wcf help!

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I shoot a HiWall in 40-82 and ran into a similar problem. Gun was originally intended for black powder and relied on the obturation to get the bullet to fill the bore. In my rifle, if I use a bullet that matches the bore, there is too little room in the neck for normal brass thickness. I turned some necks with a forester tool and shoot bullets close to bore size. Black powder still is best though.... with real black powder and soft lead bullets it will shoot 3" or so at 100 yards.
    "To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." —Theodore Roosevelt"

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Il see about the crimp die. Il need to do some testing. Since I dont have a case resizer, it seems like my cases expand about 1/2 an inch at the bottom causing the bolt to stay open quite alot. If I just take a case that has been only fired once with blackpowder it slides in no issue, but if i takea case that has been fired with the BP and then my load of trailboss... it doesn't fit. So thats why I ordered the full set of dies off of Buffalo arms. I just spoke to them today, it shipped the 21st so hopefully il get it soon.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Hi, as I said I ordered some dies, but I was thinking and all my ammo that I havent reloaded is BP (from buffalo arms) but it still shoots everywhere. It dosent seem to bump up the bullet. I also noticed that the powder is loose in the case, like smokeless. Its not compressed at all. Everyone, that I asked said that BP must be compressed.... Im not sure what to think.

  4. #24
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    Kev18,
    BP does not have to be compressed, but best accuracy is going to come from a load that is compressed. If you were to pull a bullet and weigh a powder charge I wonder what it would weigh? Or weigh a loaded round and deduct the fired case and bullet weight.

    The bullets should be bumping up with b.p. if there is a full load... and the bullets are not too hard.
    Leading in the barrel can cause inaccuracy as well.
    I would suggest cleaning the barrel very well, then fire only 5 rounds of b.p. noting where each bullet impacts the target. If those 5 group aok, then fire 5 more and see where they impact the target. My guess is that somewhere along the way, the barrel will foul out since the fouling can build up with accuracy suffering greatly with cartridges of greater than 70 grs. capacity.

    The one thing I am a bit puzzled about is the brass expansion. Does the expanded brass extract easily? If so, can the action be reclosed easily?

    One thing I just realized is that the Winchester bullet does not have a crimp groove because in use the bullet is supported by a case of b.p.
    When there is nothing holding the bullet in place, then there is the danger if the bullet telescoping into the case. If it were my 40-82 and I wanted to use smokeless with the orginal bullet, I would use 35/4895, then fill the rest of the case with PSB (polyethylene shot buffer) then seat the bullet. In addition to supporting the bullet, the PSB acts as a flexible gas check allowing undersized bullets to shoot well.

    This is the PSB I have used in my '73 Winchester .44WCF that has an oversized barrel (.433") with .428" bullets.
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/69...imately-1-2-lb
    Check the target below - with and without PSB. Amazing what corking up the gas behind a bullet that is .005" undersized bullet will do!

    Otherwise, to use Trail Boss, I would, for sure, get some bullets that have crimp groove. Will fired cases accept bullets larger than .406"? If so, I would opt for a bullet of the diameter closer to the groove dia is.

    w30wcf
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails target 44-40 PSB 73 WInchester.jpg  
    Last edited by w30wcf; 08-29-2017 at 03:48 AM. Reason: added information
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
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    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  5. #25
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    The story behind the target is this. I had purchased a box of Winchester .44-40 cowboy ammunition back in the late 1990's, in anticipation of knowing that someday I would own an original 1873 Winchester. In 1999 that dream became a reality.

    I went to the range with ammunition in hand, and to my dismay, the bullets went sideways. Yikes!Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	202810 Normally I would slug the barrel, but I was anxious to fire my original '73. It was then that I discovered that the barrel was .433" and a bullet pulled from the ammunition was .428" (.005" undersized) and pretty hard to boot (17 BHN).

    I thought Drats! now what am I going to do with the rest of this ammunition? I decided to use an inertia puller and dissect the remaining 45 cartridges. I disposed of the powder and reassembled the cartridges with the recipe that is on the target. By keeping the gas behind the bullet, it centered itself in the barrel and tranversed it undisturbed by no powder gases getting by and produced the one hole group at 25 yards.

    Update: Upon further examination of the barrel, I have discovered that it is .437" in front of the chamber and .433" at the muzzle, for an average barrel dimension of .435" which is .007" over the bullet diameter(!).

    w30wcf
    Last edited by w30wcf; 08-29-2017 at 04:24 AM.
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
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    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    I finally got my dies from Buffalo arms. I Resized quite a few cartridges and they work great now. My only issue is that The resizing/decapping die crushes my brass right under the shoulder. Im not sure why. So now im forced to leave it unscrewed almost to the maximum causing it to not decap the brass.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy fivefang's Avatar
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    Kev18, do you shoot single shot mode?, if so put a orientation mk. on the casing which might help with re-loading/chambering ease, Fivefang

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info! I will try shooting BP rounds from buffalo arms and GAD customs. Everyone is telling me that Bp is supposed to be so much better but I remember that I could barely hit a target. And I shot so many boxes of them! I still have atleast 3 boxes of them, so il see the results.

    As of now I get good groupings by just stuffing a small square of toilet paper down the case (Not compressing the powder) and just pressing the bullet in normally. For some reason that helps. I will definitely try ordering some of those fiber wads you recommended off of Buffalo arms.
    I also fixed my case neck expansion with my new resizing dies. Turns out I was using magnum primers for black powder. Now I got Winchester large rifle primers. So thats what my problem was. I put the winchester primers in, shot the round, and the case fit fine in the chamber even after being fired.

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub
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    Kev,
    I have an 86 that was built in 1887 that hadn't been fired since 1929 when my dad bought it at an auction for $1.50. I wound up with that rifle and started shooting it in 2008. I started with 3 boxes of ammo from Gad Custom Cartridges to see if the old girl would shoot. It did, but not very accurately. That was the start of a quest to get her to shoot accurately. These are some of the things I learned.

    1. Slug your bore to find out the diameter of your bore. Mine is .409 and I shoot .410 bullets in it. The larger bullet won't chamber in my gun without turning the neck down. I bought 45-90 brass and used the regular reloading dies to resize it to 40-82. Starline brass is thicker and will require turning down. Old RP and UMC brass isn't as thick and some of it chambered with the .410 bullets without turning the neck.
    2. Unless your gun was made after about 1903 and stamped nickel steel, keep the velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder velocities. If you use black , this is a non-issue, but if you use smokeless, this is an important consideration.
    3. There are smokeless loads out there using XMP-5744, RL-7, IMR-4198, IMR-3031, H-322 and some others. My best loads have been 31 gr. RL-7 and 26 gr. 5744 pushing cast bullets between 255 and 277gr.
    4. If you shoot smokeless, you will have to use some sort of filler in order to get decent accuracy. I have loads that I shot with and without filler at 50 yards that grouped nicely with, and were spread out all over the paper without. The most common filler materials are dacron fiber, 1 square of TP rolled up and folded in half, Cream of wheat and cornmeal. The 40-82 and 45-90 have too much room in the case to get an even burn without a filler, which affects accuracy.
    5. Maximum bullet weight is about 300 grains according to Mike Venturino, but I haven't tried anything over 277 grains.

    Same load with and without filler
    Click image for larger version. 

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    100yards - 2.5" (1.26" without the flyer)
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    200 yards - 3.25" 3 shot group
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  10. #30
    In Remembrance Reverend Al's Avatar
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    Years ago I had an '86 in .40-82 with good condition rapid taper octagon barrel. Initial tests were dismal with the bullets keyholing at 50 yards. I found an article by Mike Venturino where he worked the kinks out of a friend's Marlin '95 in .40-82 and his fix was a filler. I used his suggested load of 35.0 grains of IMR3031, bulk yellow cornmeal to the base of the seated bullet, and a proper weight 260 grain bullet. My rifle went from keyholing at 50 yards to 2" - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Unfortunately I was talked out of that old '86 in a weak moment, but I now have managed to replace it with a nice 1885 High Wall mfg in 1889 in .40-82 and it shoots the same load quite well. If I can find my copy of Venturino's article I'll scan it and send it to you ...

    I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't reached my "Expiry" date!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Thanks alot for all the info! really appreciated. Il try the filler. I use trail boss in my smokeless loads. I just recently got 2f BP though, so I reloaded alot of ammo. I didnt go shoot yet since its hunting season. I dont want to disturb anyone's hunt. I reloaded 60, 70, 75, and one 78 and 80 grain load. Il see how it performs this winter I guess... I also ripped a bullet out of the GAD cartridges I had. He only put 50 grains of BP in there. Loose... no wads, nothing. And I feel like my Buffalo arms ammo are all the same aswell. I cant hit the broad side of a barn with those.
    Also you might have a point on turning down the cases, because I tried chambering my 60gr load and it kinda slides in well. I need to use force on the lever. but nothing crazy. i also tried chambering my 75 and 80 grains, and that was another story. . They were quite hard. When I take the GAD ammo or the BA ones, they just slide in all the way down the chamber with 0 issues .My bullets are .406 and my bore is .408. So im trying to use alot of BP to bump up the bullet size.. Thats what ive been told atleast. I dont ahve alot of experience in reloading.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #33
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Al View Post
    Years ago I had an '86 in .40-82 with good condition rapid taper octagon barrel. Initial tests were dismal with the bullets keyholing at 50 yards. I found an article by Mike Venturino where he worked the kinks out of a friend's Marlin '95 in .40-82 and his fix was a filler. I used his suggested load of 35.0 grains of IMR3031, bulk yellow cornmeal to the base of the seated bullet, and a proper weight 260 grain bullet. My rifle went from keyholing at 50 yards to 2" - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Unfortunately I was talked out of that old '86 in a weak moment, but I now have managed to replace it with a nice 1885 High Wall mfg in 1889 in .40-82 and it shoots the same load quite well. If I can find my copy of Venturino's article I'll scan it and send it to you ...

    Thanks, if you ever find the article again id like to have it. Would you know of any books that have good reloading data for obsolete cartridges like the 40-82? Thanks !

  14. #34
    In Remembrance Reverend Al's Avatar
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    Try to find a copy of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's book "The Winchester Lever Legacy". Lots of great information on duplicating the factory ballistics of old and obsolete calibres to shoot in old Winchesters. If you shop around you might find a used copy at a reasonable price, but it is not usually a cheap book. (But well worth the investment.)

    https://www.amazon.com/Winchester-le.../dp/0962026719
    I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't reached my "Expiry" date!

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Thanks Il give it a shot

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Al View Post
    Try to find a copy of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's book "The Winchester Lever Legacy". Lots of great information on duplicating the factory ballistics of old and obsolete calibres to shoot in old Winchesters. If you shop around you might find a used copy at a reasonable price, but it is not usually a cheap book. (But well worth the investment.)

    https://www.amazon.com/Winchester-le.../dp/0962026719
    Heartily seconded, and I've got mine. It is a huge great doorstep of a book, and you can easily be deceived by dipping into it and seeing the western lore, drawings, Williamson's cattle brand certificate, folksy humour etc. But behind that there lies a first-rate reloading manual and programme of testing on the Browning lever Winchesters.

    Mine is signed by the author, but perhaps they all were. It couldn't have had a big print run, and anybody here who rus a reprint publishing company could surely do both us and Williamson or his heirs a favour. I got mine by mail i9nth b 1994, and was called in to the parcel-opening customs department in the post office. I went in in some trepidation, although it isn't like the Kuwaitis to interfere with books like that. But it turned out that the director just wanted to ply me with tea and cakes and talk about guns.

    I don't think you can find better prices than Amazon at the moment, but in such cases www.bookfinder.com is usually worth a look.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Il try to find it somewhere. I live in Canada so the prices are abit high for me. But il see what I can do.

  18. #38
    Boolit Bub
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    I am not sure why you are having issues with chambering the higher amounts of powder if the brass is unfired and the bullets are .406. IIRC, starline brass will only hold 72 grains of BP behind a 260 grain bullet. The only thing I can think of is that the bullets aren't able to seat as deeply in the casing as it should and the overall length is too long and the bullet is being pushed into the rifling when you try to chamber the round.

    I have to turn the cases at the neck when I use .410 bullets because the outside diameter is larger than the throat of the chamber. The only part of the cartridge that is oversized is the neck where the bullet is seated. In my gun, that area of the case has to be turned down below .430. I turn it down using a Lee three jaw chuck and the spindle that Lee sells so you can use it in a drill. That costs around $20 plus the cost of a file to take off the excess metal.

    You may want to consider buying cast bullets that are the correct size for your gun. Sounds like you need .409 bullets, not .406. Smokeless won't bump the bullet size to fill the barrel. BP is supposed to, but I don't have any experience with that, only with smokeless.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1886 40-82 Conky Log 1a.jpg  

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I was thinking that the bullets may need a hollow base with a thick skirt. Then when fired the skirt or base of the bullet gets expanded to fit the rifling better. Sort of like the 38 special target wadcutter bullets. But with a more thick skirt to the base of the bullets. But maybe they already do that with some factory ammo.

  20. #40
    Boolit Bub
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    Kev,
    I wouldn't use Trail Boss in that gun. I spent 2 years looking for 40-82 loads on the internet and have quite a list. Trail Boss isn't in that list.
    The reason is that it is a very fast burning powder which equates to higher pressures when you touch off a shot. The powders I listed earlier are medium burning powders and are safer to use in a mild steel barrel if you keep the velocity at or below 1500 fps.

    EDIT:
    When I wrote the note above, I assumed that Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder with small amounts in small cases. I WAS WRONG!!
    Trail Boss was designed to fill up the large black powder cases and propel the bullet at lower velocity. According to the reviews most users like it in black powder cases and in some more modern cases to reduce recoil and allow the use of cast bullets. Thanks to Ballistics in Scotland for his post, which spurred me to look into it more deeply. I'm going to try this powder in my 40-82 to see what it will do!
    Last edited by Geobru; 11-12-2017 at 04:37 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check