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Thread: Durabitlity and reliability, which handgun is the best?

  1. #181
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    It seems the link I posted has been taken down. I wish it were still available as this was far more than a "run of the mill repair shop in someones garage".
    I don't know if the various gun manufacturers would release testing data such as you seem to require. I think they would consider that type of thing proprietary and not for general release.
    At this point I don't believe you will accept any data that I might provide. You will always ask for more and claim that without it, nothing matters.
    I still feel that if so many people find these particular guns to be among the best, there has to be something to it.
    Those opinions are why I started this thread and why I hope it keeps going.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    The OP stated a SHTF scenario. In that case you may not have a room full of tools to fix broken parts in your gun. This is one of the reasons I "laughed" at the recommendation of a 1911. To work on a Glock you need one of these.


    Beyond that you'll need a rear sight pusher and a front sight socket. And that's it. You don't need a lot to work on them. I'm not a Glock fan by any means. I'm a fan of their simplicity. Which in a SHTF scenario will pay off in spades.

    No gun is going to run forever w/out breaking parts. I've seen more issues w/ 1911s in my short life than any other pistol. They can be picky when it comes to ammo selection. This is another plus for a Glock that will fire anything you put in it. They aren't the nicest looking or shooting guns but they are work horses. Same can be said for the Beretta 92s. But they require more tools to work on.
    I had thought I responded to this, but it seems not. . .maybe only in my head.

    I don't get too worked up in the 1911 / Glock debate, because they are my #1 and #2 favorite autoloading handguns, respectively, with everything else being a pile of lawyer and/or accountant-mandated complications like DA triggers, decockers, mag disconnects, LCIs, and other frivel. As to which is "better" of the two, I regard them of products of different ages which had somewhat differing mindsets.

    The 1911's reputation has suffered at the hands of people who either don't properly understand how it works, or want to tweak it to be all things to all people (i.e. super-tight, match-tolerance, hair-trigger target guns. . .with fixed night sights and light rails. . .). When you build it as it was intended to be built, and lock everything down like you're building it for war, about all you really need to understand about how auto pistols operate is how to check for and establish proper extractor tension. Get that down, run it on semi-decent 7-round, and don't run ridiculous meplats in it, it's an unstoppable tank that I would Pepsi Challenge against all comers. In the age of it's origin, there was no e-mailing via satellite to have the C17 bring you parts in 3 days; you had to roll with what you had, so what you had needed to be stout. And has already been said, you don't even need a punch to detail strip a straight GI one.

    The Glock is a little more the product of the e-mail and C17 era, and it requires less of an understanding of how guns work - just an understanding of how to change out what's wrong. This is great if you (A.) have that understanding, and (B.) have the replacement for what's wrong. It does have a HELLA durable finish that I wish someone would get around to putting on a 1911.

    The caveat to long term Glock durability/reliability is one needs to clarify WHICH Glocks are we talking about. 9mm with standard pressure ammo was what they were originally designed and seriously tested for, and those guns are pretty stout. The early .40's and .357's from many makers (Gen 2/3 in Glock's case) were rushed to capitalize on the sales potential of the .40 Swindle & Whitewash that the agencies were marching like zombies to buy before they realized the only thing wrong with the 9mm was the bullets. Consequently, they suffered from being big-caliber guns with small caliber construction and tended to break a lot of stuff if you didn't watch the round count and spring changes like a hawk. I think Glock had about 5 follower and at least three locking block revisions for the .40 on the Gen 3 alone. Meanwhile, the 9mm's just kept chugging. . .until guys tried to run them on +P+. . .at which point they began acting a lot like the .40's. Remember the beefed-up slide on the Beretta Brigadier? Or how HK came to the .40 party about two years late with the USP that was designed for that round FIRST? Same principle.

    The industry-wide .40 debacle highlights another point that seems to plague a lot of modern pistols: the 1911 didn't suffer from anyone trying to make it "NEW!", "The First!", "The Next Big Thing!" , or "We Have To Get This Idea To Market Before ______ Does!", that seems to result in the product recall of the month. The 1911 was the product of almost a decade's tweaking before "mil-spec" locked in the blueprints, which are still being used to this day, as opposed to "We reserve the right to screw this up as we see fit, when we see fit"

    Your new i-Phone will probably be obsolescent in three years, but the 1911 remains remarkably current. This is because the problems it was made to solve have not changed, and were more clearly understood then than they seem to be now.
    WWJMBD?

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  3. #183
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    The 1911's reputation also suffered with the Militaries lack of maintenance during the 70's thru the mid 90's. The round count on some of the 1911's in training use was truly amazing as was the lack of maintenance on them.

  4. #184
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The 1911 has been around for over 100 years and has a deserved reputation. I wish I could be around in about 30-50 years and see how the reputation of the Glock holds up.

    Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minuteshaver View Post
    On a shear level of reliability, OR durability, NOTHING beats a 32 ounce framing hammer. Absolutely nothing but ill admit right off that a regulation tee ball bat, with 4 inches of lead pipe snuggled down over the business end comes a mighty comfy tie for 1st place.

    for revolvers it depends on the gun and the ammunition used. Get yourself an N frame in .357 magnum and load it with .38 special lwsc, it should last till the second coming. But grab an armscor and well be looking for a replacement inside 5,000 rounds.

    SW gives a 50,000 round repair policy at 1,000 rounds per year. That may be useful or not. Miculek needs his custom shop built smiths completely rebuilt every few years, and he shoots what 30,000 rounds a year in a single gun?
    The first really useful post in my humble opinion. It gives a ball part idea of how many rounds a year. Looks like somewhere in the 50K-60K for S&W. Important info on loading....Armscor in my opinion is loaded probably at the top of the chart. So, expect to be able to run less rounds thru it if they are loaded heavy. More rounds if they are loaded lite.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 09-03-2017 at 06:04 AM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    The 1911 has been around for over 100 years and has a deserved reputation. I wish I could be around in about 30-50 years and see how the reputation of the Glock holds up.

    Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.
    I'll have to disagree partially with what has been said. I have a S&W from the custom shop that will eat anything without any feed failures. The have a Colt officers with some polishing of the feed ramp and feed ramp machined to the correct angle...feeds anything. I have a Colt National Match ...feeds anything. I have a military 1911 only feeds hard ball and chokes on anything else.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "Target Pistol" when they are setup properly they will be accurate and feed anything anytime. I guess it depends on who works on your 1911 setting it up and getting the bugs out. Another important thing with any 1911 is the proper magazine. Some mags are meant to feed hard ball and others will feed anything.

    I've shot a number of the " Target Pistols from Custom Shops" guns from Les Baer, Wilson, and Ed Brown just to name several. They have fed everything I ran thru them.

    Some of the so called feed failures are nothing more than operator error. I watched in horror as a guy shooting next to me with his new 1911 couldn't seem to get a round thru it without stove piping it. Grip has a lot to do with the ability of any 1911 to function properly. So many times the 1911 is blamed for being a malfunctioning *** and the problem is the idiotic person trying to shoot it.

  7. #187
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    Attachment 203251

    Picture of my run of the mill "Target Gun"

    Attachment 203252

    Proper magazine

    Attachment 203253 Attachment 203254

    Colt Gold Cup National Match Series 70 Magazine

    Attachment 203255

    Average performance 25 yards 7 rounds

    Granted I can pull out targets from my other 1911's most will rival the best by Baer, Brown, and Wilson. Any decent setup 1911 will generally perform better than the person shooting the gun.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 09-03-2017 at 06:47 AM.

  8. #188
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    The Glock 35 which I would have no problem selecting for SHIF senereo.

    Attachment 203257

    First attempt at trying to make a decent performing load. 180 gr SWC lead bullet in front of 4.5 gr of WW231 powder. The first shot a tad low told me to raise the sight a bit. Adjustment and another shot a bit higher. Another adjustment followed by three rounds in the center. All at 25 yards.
    Goes to show the Glock 35 with a Lone Wolf barrel is a decent performer in the right hands. No more targets to show simply because I only loaded the 5 to try.

    So, two possibles for the SHIF senereo. I would take either and there is data on both sides to prove either will run thousands of rounds before a tune up is needed. Both if selected will need additional parts, springs and such to last a long long time.

  9. #189
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    Unfortunately my desire to obtain some info on rounds fired has for the most part fell upon dead ears. Important info like the S&W rounds fired would be an important factor in your when it hits the fan selection.

    As mentioned... it would be important to have a selection of back up parts. To be blunt the Glocks will need them, the 1911's will need them and ANY wheel gun will need them. Yes, they can be packed away in you grab and go bag that you should have ready to go.

  10. #190
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    6bg6ga---There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "Target Pistol" when they are setup properly they will be accurate and feed anything anytime. I guess it depends on who works on your 1911 setting it up and getting the bugs out. Another important thing with any 1911 is the proper magazine. Some mags are meant to feed hard ball and others will feed anything.

    This is absolutely correct. My target style 1911 is setup specifically for hardball and simply won't feed anything else reliably. The other 1911 was set up for general purpose shooting and feeds anything with a reasonably decent magazine.

    6bg6ga----As mentioned... it would be important to have a selection of back up parts. To be blunt the Glocks will need them, the 1911's will need them and ANY wheel gun will need them. Yes, they can be packed away in you grab and go bag that you should have ready to go.

    Also true. My only caveat is I am not planning on bugging out. If it gets that bad, I will live or die in place. I am too old to run through the boonies any more.

    I just wish I could shoot as well as your target proves you can. I am working on it.
    For some reason the pictures you attempted to post in #190 aren't visible. I am hoping you can repost or otherwise correct that problem as I would very much like to see them.
    Last edited by tazman; 09-03-2017 at 09:00 AM.

  11. #191
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    I found it necessary sign into the site and then the attachments once you click on them they will open. Not signed in I got an invalid message. Will repost them just in case.

    Attachment 203267

    Attachment 203265

    Attachment 203268

    Attachment 203269

    Attachment 203270

  12. #192
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    First picture my National match.

    Second picture a Brownells magazine that will feed absolutely anything perfectly provided the ramp is polished.

    Third picture a Stock Colt Gold Cup magazine.

    Target is 7 rounds @ 25 yards with the gun in picture #1.

  13. #193
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I logged in first thing this morning. I still can't see the pictures from #190 but the second posting is no problem. Thanks for re-posting.
    My hardball magazines look like the Colt Gold Cup magazine. The ones I use for semi-wadcutters look like the Brownell's magazine. I have used the SWC magazines in the hardball gun I have and they work fine for hardball but still won't feed SWC in that pistol. It has to be a polish/feed ramp/throating issue but I am not certain I want to mess with it yet. It is shooting hardball and Lyman 452374 boolits really well.
    That target is impressive. That is about what I do at 10 yards. At 25 my groups are much larger than that. Not to say my pistol isn't capable. It almost certainly is. I on the other hand, am not.

  14. #194
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    I cheat I have very nice triggers that function with very little pull required. Most of my triggers according to the scale are about 2.5 lb or less. Give me a 4 or 5 lb trigger and I simply cannot shoot that tight of a group. As with everything I need to improve and make them smaller yet. I used to be better before age and arthritus kicked in.

    I used to use the Lyman 452374 mold and the H&G68 and then switched to a Magma molds which I like better.

  15. #195
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    My hardball gun was set up with a Kart barrel which has a fairly tight chamber and very little throat. As I said, it was set up specifically for hardball and it runs that well. I don't know enough to tell if having the barrel re-throated for SWC would mess up the barrel for hardball or not.
    The best trigger I have on any of my 1911 pistols is a 3.5 lb trigger on my Springfield Range Officer in 9mm. I do shoot it a little better than the 45ACP but I didn't think the trigger would make that much difference.
    I don't have that much experience with 1911 as a platform. Still learning.

  16. #196
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    I spent some time today and read a lot of the posts on this thread and they definitely are accurately defined as a "popularity contest."

    However,,, I think the real answers to the OP's question are found in compiling the numbers of these posts IE: like a poll and taking those numbers as the correct answer.

    If you look at a Broader Survey IE; The past sales of candidate firearms, and their usage in Combat over as long a period of time as is available,,, the winners will float to the top. There is no one absolute best, but there are definitely top performers. The best designs tend to last the longest and show their worth across virtually all forms of usage.

    As far as Auto Pistols,,, two designs are above all others. They are the 1911 in all it's forms and manufacturers, and the Glock. The 1911 served the US Military for nearly 75 years and lots of other Military and Police Units around the world during that period. Its contribution to Firearms History can not be disputed.

    The Glock platform has served 65% of all militaries and police units for the last 30 years.

    No other Auto Pistols have this amount of service. There are plenty of very serviceable guns out there, but none rise to the level of acceptance of these two guns. They are Battle proven beyond anything else, and this is the one big reason why I think our military made a big mistake buying Sig P320s which have only been available for 3 years. They are not Battle proven anywhere but in acceptance trials.

    As far as Revolvers go, there are single and double action variables to consider. They are different guns.

    It is hard to argue with the service life of the S&W Model 10. It has been in service continuously since about 1910? Many other S&W Designs have evolved form that gun so obviously it is a good design. Ruger just hasn't been around long enough with their D/A guns to have a comparable track record.

    Single Action Handguns are pretty much defined by the Colt SAA. But the Ruger BH and SBH versions of that gun are hard to argue with, as they incorporated improvements to the SAA Design that were needed and positive and made them better guns.

    In the end,,, if you were able to compile Sales Records for all the top runners,,, the answers would float to the top,,, because,,,

    The Capitalistic Model of Free Markets defining what products are truly best is no joke and it works on everything, and that's where your true answer lies.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-03-2017 at 06:42 PM.
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  17. #197
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    6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

    Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

    Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.
    Those so called cheap knockoffs as you would call them are original Colt Gold Cup national match series 70 magazines that actually came out of the Colt boxes when I purchased the Gold Cups NEW. You'll have to take my word on that because I no longer have the original sales receipts. So much for that keen eye as you would call it.

    The one magazine with the bumper is a Brownells magazine.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.
    Seeing as we seem to be talking about magazines for the 1911 now, I did some pretty heavy experimentation a couple years back (as 35Remington and others can attest to), in which I explored the edge of the 1911's feeding envelope with a "fatal attraction" I had to making Elmer Keith's 452423 Auto-Rim revolver SWC work across about half a dozen versions of the gun (I've since moved on to better auto pistol bullet designs). The 452423 is NOT what a 1911 wants: it's nose is too short, the .34" meplat a couple hundredths bigger than what the gun seems to readily accept, and the full-diameter SWC shoulder often requires deeper seating into the case to prevent impact on tighter throats, which reduces C.O.A.L. well below the optimal hardball spec.

    All that said, I made it work, and the magazines that fed that sledgehammer-faced wrecking ball the smoothest, most reliably, and with the least damage to the bullet nose, most notably IN A COMPLETELY STOCK , WWII-PRODUCTION COLT, were the GI-style ones with the constantly tapering feed lips, and the mags that gave the most grief were the stepped-lip ones that presumably entered the world for shooting five shot strings of lightweight SWC bullets in Bullseye matches.

    You know how everyone waxes poetic about the "Controlled Round Feeding" and "Non-Rotating Claw Extractor" of the Mauser 98 spinoffs? That is exactly what a tapered lip mag in a 1911 gives you; a magazine that firmly controls the rear of the round at first, until it gradually hands off that control to the extractor, ultimately giving joint custody of the cartridge to the extractor, chamber walls, and breechface. The stepped magazines "surprise" the extractor by shooting the round up more suddenly. They usually seem to work just fine with any ammo that kinda-sorta resembles hardball, and it's an impressive testament to the pistol that it will put up with such monkeying. Checkmate's making those tapered lip mags again, and I never hesitate to Hoover up GI mags that are in decent condition.

    All of that goes back to the leading point of my previous post: stuff most often goes wrong with the 1911 when people violate the First Commandment, which is Thou Shalt Not **** with John Browning's Blueprints

    It's worth noting that's also usually when stuff goes wrong with the AR-15; when people leave Gene Stoner on the roadside and ride off with their glossy catalog of aftermarket Barbie accessories, while the full OEM Colts with just enough non-military contract parts to be legal are amazingly trouble-free.

    The really cool thing about the 1911 is often also its greatest downfall - the design lends itself to both the combat extreme and the target extreme. You could say much the same thing about the basic automotive concept of four wheels and an engine lending itself equally well to crawling through rocks and mud and screaming around a paved oval track at 250 mph. The problem that arises with the 1911 is that many people get it into their heads that the same gun can be BOTH a Toyota Landcruiser and an Indy Car. We don't swallow this analogy with cars because optimized off-roaders and track cars look NOTHING alike, but the clueless chomp down on the notion with 1911's because a WWI Colt and a $3,000 Bullseye gun kinda DO. We get so wrapped up in shiny bells and whistles that we stop asking the most relevant question to the OP of this thread "What is this tool FOR?" A GI 1911 has a 6-8 pound trigger for a reason; maybe it's not the best thing for attempting 2" groups at 50 yards, but you'll never have to worry about your hammer following the slide forward after a shot, while the match shooters will get their panties in a wad if you drop their slide full speed on an empty chamber, battering their delicate sear engagement.

    So I guess I should say - if you come into the party UNDERSTANDING all of that, know what to shop for, and kinda comprehend how you pistol operates, choose a 1911 according to your application (fortunately, some of the cheaper ones are closest to the reality we are discussing in this thread). It's kind of funny to put it this way, but for maximum durability this 1911 connoisseur would choose some of the least connoisseurish offerings.

    If you're a non-gun person or a mild enthusiast for whom an extractor is something your dentist uses, an ejector is the bouncer at your bar, and a gun is a box full of magical Keebler Elves who kick a bullet out the barrel each time you ring the internal signal bell with a trigger pull, buy a Glock 17. Better still, buy two, and keep the second in the box for the day the first one gives trouble.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  20. #200
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    6bg, I said nothing about a "keen eye" because based on your picture quality nobody could claim any sort of keen vision to identify anything. I said I know more about 1911 magazines than most, and that I could not be sure what you had because your picture quality is poor. Identifying marks may also be in place on the top toe of the baseplate but you did not take a picture of that. My comments had to do with the Brownell's magazine as the follower is nonstandard. The Colt baseplate markings are not definitive absent better picture quality and additional photos to show other stamp locations.

    Presumably pending better pictures and more identification the Gold Cup's magazine may be Colt's proprietary tapered lip hybrid design with a flared controlled release point intended to feed a wider variety of ammo than GI magazines do. A better picture of the feedlips and floorplate will distinguish it from the Brownells magazine. In the 70's Colt was supplying magazines with fewer markings that were leftovers from a large stash they had made earlier.

    Other vendors made them to Colt's specs later and show different markings. I have a very large stash of 1911 magazines from various vendors dating from WW1 to present.

    As a follow up to BS's post, the tapered flared lip design Colt supplies in seven shot format is more likely to feed smoothly than the semiwadcutter feed lip flared lip design which does not have tapered lips before the release point, but rather straight. GI magazines have no flare but rather a continuous taper. The seven shot Colt design is a combination of more abrupt and slightly earlier cartridge release and a preservation of the rear lip GI taper.

    Ultimately if you wanna know what works you gotta try different configurations with different ammo and go with that. For ultimate 1911 reliability I prefer a shoulderless bullet with rounded ogive. The 1911 will work with a reasonable size meplat and my stock Colts with eat the RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet like candy with no kachunky feeding from proper magazines.

    Tapered lips provide a less angular smoother feed, as BS just told you.

    Sorry for the thread hijack to some degree.
    Last edited by 35remington; 09-04-2017 at 11:26 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check