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Thread: Durabitlity and reliability, which handgun is the best?

  1. #201
    Boolit Master
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    6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

    Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

    Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.
    Those so called cheap knockoffs as you would call them are original Colt Gold Cup national match series 70 magazines that actually came out of the Colt boxes when I purchased the Gold Cups NEW. You'll have to take my word on that because I no longer have the original sales receipts. So much for that keen eye as you would call it.

    The one magazine with the bumper is a Brownells magazine.

  3. #203
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.
    Seeing as we seem to be talking about magazines for the 1911 now, I did some pretty heavy experimentation a couple years back (as 35Remington and others can attest to), in which I explored the edge of the 1911's feeding envelope with a "fatal attraction" I had to making Elmer Keith's 452423 Auto-Rim revolver SWC work across about half a dozen versions of the gun (I've since moved on to better auto pistol bullet designs). The 452423 is NOT what a 1911 wants: it's nose is too short, the .34" meplat a couple hundredths bigger than what the gun seems to readily accept, and the full-diameter SWC shoulder often requires deeper seating into the case to prevent impact on tighter throats, which reduces C.O.A.L. well below the optimal hardball spec.

    All that said, I made it work, and the magazines that fed that sledgehammer-faced wrecking ball the smoothest, most reliably, and with the least damage to the bullet nose, most notably IN A COMPLETELY STOCK , WWII-PRODUCTION COLT, were the GI-style ones with the constantly tapering feed lips, and the mags that gave the most grief were the stepped-lip ones that presumably entered the world for shooting five shot strings of lightweight SWC bullets in Bullseye matches.

    You know how everyone waxes poetic about the "Controlled Round Feeding" and "Non-Rotating Claw Extractor" of the Mauser 98 spinoffs? That is exactly what a tapered lip mag in a 1911 gives you; a magazine that firmly controls the rear of the round at first, until it gradually hands off that control to the extractor, ultimately giving joint custody of the cartridge to the extractor, chamber walls, and breechface. The stepped magazines "surprise" the extractor by shooting the round up more suddenly. They usually seem to work just fine with any ammo that kinda-sorta resembles hardball, and it's an impressive testament to the pistol that it will put up with such monkeying. Checkmate's making those tapered lip mags again, and I never hesitate to Hoover up GI mags that are in decent condition.

    All of that goes back to the leading point of my previous post: stuff most often goes wrong with the 1911 when people violate the First Commandment, which is Thou Shalt Not **** with John Browning's Blueprints

    It's worth noting that's also usually when stuff goes wrong with the AR-15; when people leave Gene Stoner on the roadside and ride off with their glossy catalog of aftermarket Barbie accessories, while the full OEM Colts with just enough non-military contract parts to be legal are amazingly trouble-free.

    The really cool thing about the 1911 is often also its greatest downfall - the design lends itself to both the combat extreme and the target extreme. You could say much the same thing about the basic automotive concept of four wheels and an engine lending itself equally well to crawling through rocks and mud and screaming around a paved oval track at 250 mph. The problem that arises with the 1911 is that many people get it into their heads that the same gun can be BOTH a Toyota Landcruiser and an Indy Car. We don't swallow this analogy with cars because optimized off-roaders and track cars look NOTHING alike, but the clueless chomp down on the notion with 1911's because a WWI Colt and a $3,000 Bullseye gun kinda DO. We get so wrapped up in shiny bells and whistles that we stop asking the most relevant question to the OP of this thread "What is this tool FOR?" A GI 1911 has a 6-8 pound trigger for a reason; maybe it's not the best thing for attempting 2" groups at 50 yards, but you'll never have to worry about your hammer following the slide forward after a shot, while the match shooters will get their panties in a wad if you drop their slide full speed on an empty chamber, battering their delicate sear engagement.

    So I guess I should say - if you come into the party UNDERSTANDING all of that, know what to shop for, and kinda comprehend how you pistol operates, choose a 1911 according to your application (fortunately, some of the cheaper ones are closest to the reality we are discussing in this thread). It's kind of funny to put it this way, but for maximum durability this 1911 connoisseur would choose some of the least connoisseurish offerings.

    If you're a non-gun person or a mild enthusiast for whom an extractor is something your dentist uses, an ejector is the bouncer at your bar, and a gun is a box full of magical Keebler Elves who kick a bullet out the barrel each time you ring the internal signal bell with a trigger pull, buy a Glock 17. Better still, buy two, and keep the second in the box for the day the first one gives trouble.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  4. #204
    Boolit Master
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    6bg, I said nothing about a "keen eye" because based on your picture quality nobody could claim any sort of keen vision to identify anything. I said I know more about 1911 magazines than most, and that I could not be sure what you had because your picture quality is poor. Identifying marks may also be in place on the top toe of the baseplate but you did not take a picture of that. My comments had to do with the Brownell's magazine as the follower is nonstandard. The Colt baseplate markings are not definitive absent better picture quality and additional photos to show other stamp locations.

    Presumably pending better pictures and more identification the Gold Cup's magazine may be Colt's proprietary tapered lip hybrid design with a flared controlled release point intended to feed a wider variety of ammo than GI magazines do. A better picture of the feedlips and floorplate will distinguish it from the Brownells magazine. In the 70's Colt was supplying magazines with fewer markings that were leftovers from a large stash they had made earlier.

    Other vendors made them to Colt's specs later and show different markings. I have a very large stash of 1911 magazines from various vendors dating from WW1 to present.

    As a follow up to BS's post, the tapered flared lip design Colt supplies in seven shot format is more likely to feed smoothly than the semiwadcutter feed lip flared lip design which does not have tapered lips before the release point, but rather straight. GI magazines have no flare but rather a continuous taper. The seven shot Colt design is a combination of more abrupt and slightly earlier cartridge release and a preservation of the rear lip GI taper.

    Ultimately if you wanna know what works you gotta try different configurations with different ammo and go with that. For ultimate 1911 reliability I prefer a shoulderless bullet with rounded ogive. The 1911 will work with a reasonable size meplat and my stock Colts with eat the RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet like candy with no kachunky feeding from proper magazines.

    Tapered lips provide a less angular smoother feed, as BS just told you.

    Sorry for the thread hijack to some degree.
    Last edited by 35remington; 09-04-2017 at 11:26 AM.

  5. #205
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    6bg6ba???
    John
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  6. #206
    I have a background as both an end-user of a various weapons systems, as well as being cross trained as an armorer on a large assortment of weapons ranging from belt fed machine guns, to semi auto sniper systems (SR-25/M110) as well as the M24, to Glock, M203 grenade launchers, you name it. The .gov has sent me to various defense manufacturers to learn these systems inside and out, and I spent weeks at a time receiving a very in-depth education in the field.





    I just noticed in the above pic that my hair did not have any grey in it. Amazing what a decade can do!






    I only put that out there as a preface, so others will know my perspective and know it is not from what some member condescendingly called it a "Fanboy" thing.

    The punchline is that, without question the handgun I would grab first would be a 9mm Glock. Either a G17, or G19 or even a G34. I have shot many tens of thousands of rounds through individual issued G19s and been extremely impressed with their reliability.

    In fact at one location I was tasked with shutting down an embassy armory. We keep X amount of ammo on hand for issue, for training, for defense of the compound and for reserve. During the shutdown, to to the hostile nature of the location there was no way for us to get what was left of the ammo out, so I was tasked with getting rid of it. The problem is if I had it buried, the Hajis would just dig it up and use it against GIs and I was not going to let that happen. Long story short, I was having the teams shoot every single day that they were not out in Indian Country. I personally fired over 15,000 rounds through my issued G19 in a little over 3 months. I did not have a single malfunction in that entire time. That is a true testament to the design. Do Glocks break? Absolutely. I have repaired more than a few, but compared to other designed I have had to deal with, they are substantially easier to repair and to keep running. Plus anyone who can count to Potato and can read the directions in a Legos set can repair a Glock in the field, if the issue is a minor one, and they are properly trained.

    On my own time I absolutely love fiddling with revolvers, especially N Frame .44s, but when it is time to quit playing and get to work, I grab a Glock and a Colt M4.

  7. #207
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamogunr View Post
    6bg6ba???
    [QUOTE=My comments had to do with the Brownell's magazine as the follower is nonstandard.]QUOTE

    The follower in the Brownells magazine is as purchased by myself at the Brownells store in Grinnell,Iowa

  8. #208
    Boolit Master
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    Mackay thank you for your service to this great nation and thank you for your factual and unbiased opinions and facts.

  9. #209
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    Mackay Sagebrush Those numbers are interesting. Makes me want to try out a Glock even more than before.
    Currently thinking about trying the Glock 34. Anyone out there have any experience with this particular maodel?

  10. #210
    I have north of 20K in mine. Great gun, very easy to shoot well. Very light recoil, and shot to shot split times are rather quick.

    I am a long time 1911 fan and carried one for both work and play for years, before switching to the modern guns. One thing to consider is this:


    For essentially the same weight I get 9 rounds of .45....



    or

    43 rounds of 9mm.


  11. #211
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    the Army bought $581 million dollars worth of P320's at $207 ea. Glock was at $270 each. They lost out on that contract. And the lowest bidder got it. The Sig gun is probably a decent gun, Sig doesn't generally make garbage. But they won't know for another 10 years if it was a prudent buy or not.

    It was all about the cost and the decision to go to 9MM was all about cost as well. Anyone with a brain knows that .45's are a better man stopper than 9mm's but they do cost more, and so cost won out as the defining factor..


    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  12. #212
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    the Army bought $581 million dollars worth of P320's at $207 ea. Glock was at $270 each. They lost out on that contract. And the lowest bidder got it. The Sig gun is probably a decent gun, Sig doesn't generally make garbage. But they won't know for another 10 years if it was a prudent buy or not.

    It was all about the cost and the decision to go to 9MM was all about cost as well. Anyone with a brain knows that .45's are a better man stopper than 9mm's but they do cost more, and so cost won out as the defining factor..


    Randy
    As one that has owned a Sig 1911 Tac Pac I can tell you that I will never have another one. It shot great but the problem for me was the trigger pull that was extremely excessive. The problem is that Sig has extra stuff inside making it nearly impossible to make the trigger pull decent in their 1911. Having said that I do realize that those in the military don't need a 3lb or less trigger pull like I do but it does make one wonder if those extra parts wouldn't contribute to excessive trips to the armoror.

    I believe and was told by a number of former military personal that the contributing factors in going to the 9mm were that the round needed to be a NATO round, you can carry more 9mm than 45's and if we ran low on ammo our NATO friends on the field could contribute needed ammunition.

    The move to the Sig will be one that will bite our military in the asp but then again they don't seem to care too much because if it doesn't work out someone will cut a blank check and move on.

  13. #213
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    Lefty Red's Avatar
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    Durabitlity and reliability, which handgun is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackay Sagebrush View Post
    I have a background as both an end-user of a various weapons systems, as well as being cross trained as an armorer on a large assortment of weapons ranging from belt fed machine guns, to semi auto sniper systems (SR-25/M110) as well as the M24, to Glock, M203 grenade launchers, you name it. The .gov has sent me to various defense manufacturers to learn these systems inside and out, and I spent weeks at a time receiving a very in-depth education in the field.

    Do Glocks break? Absolutely. I have repaired more than a few, but compared to other designed I have had to deal with, they are substantially easier to repair and to keep running. Plus anyone who can count to Potato and can read the directions in a Legos set can repair a Glock in the field, if the issue is a minor one, and they are properly trained.
    What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?

    Interesting it hear your response due to your lengthy use in the field with those weapons over the casual user's experience.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Lefty Red; 09-07-2017 at 01:40 PM.
    I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Red View Post
    What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'll throw my two cents in.

    In my model 23 I have replaced springs for normal wear. The firing pin spring seemed to get weak on me for one.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Red View Post
    What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?

    Interesting it hear your response due to your lengthy use in the field with those weapons over the casual user's experience.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm intimately acquainted with the maintenance issues of the Gen 3 22 and 23 (.40). The ugly stuff on those seems to appear in the 2000-3000 round ballpark if you aren't swapping recoil springs. You might see the same issues on the 9mm's but MUCH farther along on the round count. The Gen 4's, which are sprung according to caliber seem to roughly double the figure, but I've not needed to change anything at all on those several years into them.

    The impressive thing is, they will run (after a fashion) with an impressive number of broken parts in them:

    Locking block pin: it provides a surface against which the slide stop spring gets its downward tension. If the pin breaks, and the left side falls out, the slide stop starts flopping and you get slide lock even if you're not out of ammo. Tap and rack gets you another shot, and holding the slide stop down with a thumb will run essentially as normal. NOTE: The new Gen 5 won't even have this pin anymore, and early indications are that Glock may not even bother making the G5 in .40.

    Trigger pin: Only seen a tiny handful of those go. On my 22 (old when I got it secondhand), the trigger pull was AWFUL with the broken pin in place, but the gun functioned.

    Trigger spring: Only seen one die. If you properly reset the trigger each shot instead of jerkily letting go like it burned you, you may never even notice it's broken. The trigger bars got redesigned several years ago to have the hooks of that spring bear on a rounded surface instead of a 90-degree corner, so life of that part (which I've never known to be a real issue) just got even longer.

    If you're going to break a frame rail, I'll bet its the left rear one, and the gun will probably run just fine until you notice it's gone.

    The model 22 seems to have something in it's firing dynamics geometry that causes the firing pin and firing pin safety to bang on each other to a point where you will eventually be able to push the firing pin past the safety, requiring replacement of the safety (cheap) firing pin (less so) or both. I say "requiring" because testing that's a function check, and failing that necessitates repair. It is, however, a safety that is redundant , what with the the trigger bar holding the firing pin back off a primer until the trigger is pulled. Yeah, i'd fix it if that were the issue, but if the Zombie Apocalypse was in full swing, I wouldn't lose any sleep over that particular concern.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  16. #216
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    Thanks Bigslug.


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    I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

  17. #217
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    1909 Army is still running just fine.

  18. #218
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I finally got some experience with a Glock handgun a couple of days ago. I mentioned this in another thread about how I had issues with the trigger due to a quirk of mine. This issue would most likely not be a problem for someone without my particular difficulty.
    The gun(Glock 34) handled well and functioned perfectly and when I was able to do my part(about 70% of the time) the pistol was accurate.
    Any problems I had with the gun were purely a personal issue and not any fault of the weapon itself. It does exactly what it was designed to do.
    I just happen to have a quirk that won't allow me to use that particular brand of firearm. At least without a lot of practice and probably some modifications.

  19. #219
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    The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHill View Post
    The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.
    Like a Timex watch takes a licken and keeps on ticking

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