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Thread: I did a bad thing at the Game Fair in London this weekend !

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Mar 2010
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    113

    I did a bad thing at the Game Fair in London this weekend !

    Hello the crew.

    I figured to put this here as it is a Bore rifle of 12 Bore.

    Well it looks like I own a WW Greener 12 Bore rifle.
    I was at the Game Fair in London over the weekend, and a WW Greener 12 Bore rifle followed me home.

    Hammer Gun
    Damascus Steel Barrels
    Recent Birmingham nitro proof
    Jones underlever
    Fully rifled bores
    3 Leaf sight.
    12x65 chambers
    Antique (Pre 1898 )

    Now what?

    Anybody got any info ?

    I have sent an email to Graham Greener, but gun came with no info.
    So bullet weight and style and dram requirements are a mystery.

    Should be fun.

    Nitro





    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Great looking gun!

    I'm curious, are those pinned nipples original?
    Cap'n Morgan

  3. #3
    Banned
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    Nitro450esp,

    WOW!! ====> I LIKE.

    Have you fired it yet??

    yours, tex

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    A great find!!! Look on the barrel flats, there may be loading data stamped there. But then it would be for black powder.

    Yes they reprove the older guns for nitro, as a matter of fact you can order a new Damascus O/U from Purdy,
    I think it's two years for delivery, gives you time to save up for that $200K price tag!!

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Scorpion8's Avatar
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    Love those express leaf rear sights! That's craftsmanship.
    Pain heals, chicks dig scars, glory ... lasts forever.
    Retired USN
    NRA Life

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    This article by Ross Seyfried contains information on a load that regulated well from his WW Greener 12 bore rifle.

    http://www.classicarmsjournal.com/fr...loading-bench/
    Last edited by RMc; 08-02-2017 at 03:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I would very much like owning the Twin to that Greener ! I have a Greener DH-40 12 with a tang safety I've had for over fifty years and last year I picked up a circa 1905 Greener Grade F 10 gauge hammerless also with fluid steel barrels . But over the last three or four years I've been wanting a 10 or 12 gauge fully rifled or paradox SxS . There's a Russian chap on EBay that's selling what appears to be a decent mold for a paradox slug . http://m.ebay.com/itm/12GA-Hollow-Po....c100408.m2460
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    First slug the bores to find out what the bore and groove sizes are. Secondly have a look at the chambers to see if it was built/reproofed for brass cartridge cases (thin) or standard cases. Quite often the load that they were regulated for were stamped on the flats, you'll have to find this 'regulated' load or you'll be shooting 2 single barrels!
    There is quite a bit of info on these old gauge size rifles but, due to 'old-timers syndrome', I can't put my hand on any at the moment, best to do an internet search. As I remember the 2 1/2" used a 750 grain lead bullet with 4 - 4 1/2 drams of black powder for about 1200 ft/sec. (ouch!!!). the 2 3/4" using 4 1/2 -5 drams for 1300 ft/sec.
    As it has been recently Nitro Proofed the proof house that did it may well be able to help you with some info.
    Very best wishes with the project.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy Landy88's Avatar
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    Great find. Gorgeous DR.

    Those Damascus guns look so great, that they are worth the effort of their special care and feeding needs.
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.


    “Ironically, the only gun control in 19th century England was the policy forbidding police to have arms while on duty.”
    ~ Don B. Kates, Jr.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
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    According to Graham Greener, spherical ball 3 drams of black, the proof house does not check regulation, they load 30% above max spec and hit each barrel twice, if the gun survives it gets stamped. If i ask they may tell me what the standard max nitro load, that they used as the base before adding the proof factor.

    Pictures are not great, bores are little dark, dirty and a few pits but very serviceable.

    Proof marks are 12x65 BNP, no other info.
    Casting chambers and slugging bore in my future.

    Paperwork underway will be in US in a few weeks.

    Thanks for all the comments and info.

    Nitro
    Last edited by nitro450exp; 08-03-2017 at 03:17 AM.
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    113
    Strikers are "self acting" a little horn on the hammers retract them by the pins when you cock the gun, it was a way to cure stuck strikers due to soft primers being pierced.

    Diggory Hadock wrote about it in his hammer gun book on page 62, actually features pictures of this gun.

    Nitro
    Last edited by nitro450exp; 08-03-2017 at 05:58 AM.
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  12. #12
    Boolit Master



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    If the wife kicks you out, you and the 12 bore can stay at my house for a while. Then you can leave and go back home but the 12 bore can stay as long as it wants.......

  13. #13
    In Remembrance

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    wish stuff like that was around in my area! love it!
    ____________
    "...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Thanks guys, There was a lot of nice stuff at several dealers, could have spent A LOT of money.
    Regards Nitro
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    113
    45workhorse, thanks for the offer I may have to take you up on that offer !
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    113
    RMc, thanks for the article.
    Nitro
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    665
    Please advise when coming to the U.S.A. DO NOT GO NEAR CHICAGO ILLINOIS. Come way down state to near Benton Ill. Half way between Mt. Vernon, Il + Marion Il. On I - 57 interstate. We will drive and bring you to my range for a try of that gun. I have some modern black powder stuff.. Would invite all Members of this board for the shoot.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    4,900
    What a beautiful rifle! Those are WW Greener's own patent strikers, which I have only ever seen in a barlock hammer shotgun, lifted clear of the primer indentation by the little knobble on the breast of the hammer. It avoided the need for spring-retracted strikers, which were notoriously prone to deterioration or jamming, and you could put a stouter striker in a hole that wasn't partly full of coilspring. This wasn't a pheasant gun, and an inability to open and load very quickly could have been seriously fatal.

    Does it have a rebounding hammer? There was only a brief period, probably predating this rifle, when quality guns didn't. If it developed more than shotgun pressures, at a time when shotgun primers were used, it might have been thought that a rebounding hammer produced a risk of ruptured primers.

    It is probably contemporary with the first black powder express rifles, which used a slow twist and extremely hollow bullet for maximum velocity. This wasn't fully reliable on dangerous game, and got some people killed, so the 12ga would be a far better close-range lion or tiger rifle. Not, by choice, elephant, despite those cavernous bores. The rifled 10ga enjoyed quite a following for the smaller elephants of India and Ceylon, but larger bores in Africa. Greener himself recommended a "light" 8ga for brass cases over the 4ga.

    Most British deerstalking was on extremely barren mountains, with deer that know their business. So the express, or even better long-bullet rifles closely related to match rifles, had an advantage. So I am fairly sure this rifle was made for use overseas. If it was used on only one or two trips, it would explain its exceptional condition. It isn't impossible that it was made in the early days of smokeless powders, and it looks to be as strongly built as many of the early nitro-express rifles. The back-action lock doesn't require as much removal of metal from the action bar as a barlock or boxlock does. The rotary underlever is extremely strong, not just in screwing the barrels down onto the action table, which in fact isn't critical, but in removing no metal from the critical spot, the right angle of action table and breech face. The distance to the pivot pin is longer than it would be in a shotgun, because reduced leverage for the opening stresses is more important than weight. But it increases the need to do something about the pin hanging up in the primer. People like Greener knew what they were about.

    I think Graham Greener was conservative about that 3 dram load. Indeed it would work about as well as any open-sighted rifle of today on woodland deer, but Greener mentions 7 drams with a 12ga and ball. It might be regulated for rather more powerful loads than the usual black powder shotshells, since a bullet would require little or no wadding to take up space. Greener illustrates a sectioned 8ga brass case and round ball, and it does have a short wad. With ball it would be a good idea to mould these with something like papier maché or plastic, in a home-made die including a 23/32 or ¾in. ball bearing. A flat wad is likely to go cup-shaped around the ball, and permit gas to pass around its edges.

    If I wanted to shoot one, and the bullet weight isn't stamped on it, I would start with every kind of round ball or patched shotgun slug that is cheap, to find out more about barrel regulation before laying out money on a mould. It is bullet weight, much more than powder charge, that determines whether the barrels shoot together. A high velocity moves or flexes the barrels more, but the bullet leaves the barrel at an earlier stage in that movement.

    It is important to determine the groove diameter, since there was quite a bit of variation, and if it was designed for brass cases (the chances probably being about 50-50), the bore is probably larger to allow for the smaller inside case diameter. I have seen people saying NEI is no longer as good a firm as it used to be when Walt ran it. But they have some extremely bullet-shaped bullets for rifles of this type, on the last two pages of their catalogue.

    http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

    I'm curious to know how you got it out of the UK, and if you had to do any fast talking. Our standard for legally uncontrolled antiques runs up to 1939, but excludes those which will fire commercially available ammunition. This one would fire modern shotshells, and would perform quite well with them. I expect this one has done, during its lifetime. I don't believe those muzzles are rusted, but they could easily be leaded as a result.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    113
    The dealer is filing for an export permit as we speak, as it was on license.
    The US allows Tax free import without importers license for guns made before 1898 "Antiques"
    And since 2,5" round ball loads are not available commercially it fits the bill.
    I will be able to take it as hand luggage or ship it and meet it at the airport and clear customs.
    With a bill of sale that stipulates age or date of manufacture.

    Nitro
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR/ 12 ga Paradox
    450 NE #1 SR
    577 NE Falling Block SR
    20 ga. Schimmel/Simson DR
    12 Bore DR WW Greener

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
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    Ireland (for now anyway!)
    Posts
    31
    In his 'Book of the Gun' Greener gives 2 loads for a 12 bore rifle, depending on the weight of the rifle.
    1. using a 13 lb rifle - 191 grains (7 Drams) with a 599 grain bullet for 1584 f/s. ( I have seen this load in other publications recommended for elephant, rhino, etc. but with a 750 grain bullet).
    2. using a 7 1/2 lb rifle - 110 grains (4 Drams) with a 547 grain bullet (ball?) for 1384 f/s.
    So I would think the regulating load would be dependent on the weight of the rifle.
    He does mention both round ball and conical bullet in these large rifles and round ball would probably weigh around 550-580 grains depending on bore size so it could be either.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check