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Thread: Which 22lr for sporter/hunter competition

  1. #1
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    Which 22lr for sporter/hunter competition

    Guys I seem to be addicted to my new 22 Rem 513T. I just cant remember having this much fun. My offhand shooting is a little rusty but im coming back fast.

    This has me wanting to shoot small bore silhouette. Im thinking hunter class but open to suggestions. I want to buy a gun that is right for silhouette frist but may work in other competition. Im looking at Anschutz 1712 silhouette. Not sure which barrel length 18 or 21.6

    Im looking for suggestions from people shooting silhouette or other offhand competitions. I have no intrest in benchrest.

    Open to other guns and reg small bore class at 10lb 2oz if there is a benefit in other competitions. Im leaning towards a sporter class but do not really know a lot about it.

    Just looking for info. Bank account wont allow another gun purchase any time soon!

  2. #2
    Boolit Man Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    Save a bunch of $ and get a CZ American,the Anschutz will barley out shoot it, depending on ammo and shooter.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Typically you want a long bodied scope for silhouettes. You don't want to crawl the stock to see thru the scope. Shooting offhand brings the eyepiece of the scope about even with the back of the wrist of the stock when setup properly. A cz lux setup for silhouettes with a small bell and long bodied 20x scope. Any hogs backed stock makes it hard to use a scope because the hogs back stock makes the shooter stand more upright.
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    I also use a anschutz 54 sporter for silhouettes. The high comb on the stock of the older (1st year for 54 sporters/1963) 54 sporters allows the rifle to easily be able to use most scopes. I'm currently using a sightron 6-24 x 42mm on the 54 sporter.
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    Winchester 52 sporters are always a good option. They have a strait stock that allows for a wider choice of rings/scopes/setups. A winchester 52 with a sightron 6-24 x 42mm scope setup for silhouettes.
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    The remington 541-s sporters are an excellent choice for hunter silhouettes. Like them enough to own 2 of them, 1 setup with a scope & the other with iron sights.
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    A tricked out 10-22 with a custom bbl with a full blown match chamber cut it it with a 8-32 x40 scope and a thumbhole stock will easily put the smack on the silhouettes.
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    Anymore I use a contender to go up against the smallbore sporter rifles. Get some interesting looks when I beat shooters with rifles when using the contender.
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    The biggest thing with smallbore silhouettes is to find a rifle that points naturally for you and get your scope setup correctly. The best practice for smallbore silhouettes I found is actually with a break barrel pellet rifle.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    I love airguns. I sold my RAW set up for silhouette. I put the scope (Sightron S III) on my TX200. I think its over weight for the spring gun class. I usually just shot the Rams @45yds in my back yard. I find that my offhand skills go through the roof when i shoot a pellet gun every afternoon.
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    Im really wanting a nice Annie for silhouette.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Jack Stanley's Avatar
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    Forrest showed you some great choices so now it depends on your wallet huh? Two rifles I've used a little in offhand are a CZ model 452 and a Kimber model 82 . The CZ has an aftermarket trigger that still isn't as nice as the Kimber . When shot from the bench the CZ is almost as good but not quite . Both seem to fit me close to the same so in use it's not a problem .

    Jack
    Buy it cheap and stack it deep , you may need it !

    Black Rifles Matter

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I got the 1712 FWT with the 21.6" barrel. Hunter allows 1.5" between scope and action. I'm using a canted riser plus Millett windage adjustable rings. That way my 6.5-20 EFR is at the center of it's adjustment range at 77 meters. That way each click is really 1/4". .5MOA dot. 2 stage trigger. I think that's stock now. 2lb 2 ounce trigger pull. It's a heck of a squirrel rifle.

    Most folks that have a 1712 shoot both classes until they can afford a dedicated standard rifle. I've got a Suhl-150-standard with the barrel shortened to 18.5" on a Mcmillian Anschutz stock. Cheekpiece will just allow cleaning rod to clear. Rules allow 2" between scope and action but I stuck with 1.5" and same riser cant as the 1712. I've got a Weaver T-25 with 1/4 min clicks and .5 MOA dot. 2 ounce trigger.

    Both guns will shoot CCI SV ok for informal and practice but for match and fly killing I need middle of the road SK Jagd, Wolf, Lapua or Eley.

    I was fortunate to have a few folks that would let me shoot their rifles at matches. The 1700's were sweet to shoot. I sprung for my 1712 after a National Champ told me to save my money and buy the best to start. He was right. When you miss, you know who messed up.

    Fella's right. Those CZ's are tough to beat.

    It's been a while since I shot matches. There used to be some great shooters around Woolmarket and Winnsboro.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    I have to agree that Forrest has some very nice rifles. His guns command as much respect for there collectability as for there quality. Im wanting a new purpose made silhouette gun. I may be leaning toward a full custom.

    Im thinking about thinning out some of my guns and concentrating on USPSA and Small Bore Silhouette. If im willing to part with some stuff to pay for the gun. Price (within reason) will not be a concern.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Thank you for the kind words, I was merely trying to show setups with different stock designs/styles. I've shot/collected a lot of rimfires over the decades.

    Your skillset/mindset/knowledge is clearly more advanced than the average shooter asking about a silhouette rifle.

    The 1712 is king of the hill when it comes to silhouettes. But I'd be taking a hard look at the coopers and the remington custom shop just for the heck of it if you settle on the hunter class.

    There's 2 trains of thought when it comes to high end rimfire rifles. The most common is to test/match the ammo to the rifle that has their own chamber cut in them. You'll find the people with the same rifles buying using the same 2 or 3 ammo's. The less traveled path is cut a custom chamber in a match bbl targeting a specific ammo. If you ever measure ammo with a comparator tool you'll find there is huge differences in the makes/brands of rimfire ammo. The best in the business say the best accuracy comes from having around 30/1000th's of the bullets drive band be engraved by the rifling. Typically the hunting ammo is long, low grade match ammo is is shorter and the high end match ammo is the shortest. Measuring rimfire ammo a decade ago.
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    After measuring different brands/types of ammo you will see a pattern develop. Then it becomes clear why so many cz shooters (17.5mm/18mm sporter chamber) or the 10-22's with the "bentz" match chamber in them shoot the wolf or SK standard+ extremely well.
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    This is where a custom remington really shines. It would be nothing to have a br quality bbl made for the remington receiver with a chamber cut in it for specific brands/length of ammo's. If I was younger/starting over I'd go with a full remington custom myself. For the same $$$ they want for a 1712 I could have a remington built with br grade bbl with whatever taper/length/weight/chamber I wanted. That's huge for matching the balance/weight/pointability to the shooter. Triggers are = but you are also tossing in a custom stock that is fitted/balanced to you. The 1712 comes with a couple ounces to spare but you could easily get the same weight or less by going with a custom along with putting the weight where you want it thru bbl length/taper and weights added in the custom stock.

    Anyway, just something to think about. I found out a long time ago if the rifle doesn't feel right, you'll be throwing shots in the direction your fighting with the balance of that firearm.

    Seeing how anschutz/1 heck of a squirrel rifle was brought up. A picture of my favorite squirrel rifle, a mannlicher stocked anchutz from the 50's sporting a 3x weaver with a post reticle.
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    I'm really looking forward to what you come up with. Steve Boelter got interested in silhouettes and his passion grew into anshutz north america. I'm sure they could make a custom specifically for silhouettes.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    Alright Forrest your knoledge is pretty strong on the 22lr. Frist off i didnt see anything on Remingtons Website for. 22lr repeater in the 40x. What action are you refering to.

    If its going to be custom then im doing a standard rifle with the 10.2 weight limit.

    I really like the idea of having a chamber cut for the ammo im wanting to shoot.

    I sold the gun Im my Avatar today. That was the first domino to fall in order to put this new gun in my hands. I need to sell enough to cover about half then I can fund the rest. So far I have enough money for the scope!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Remington only made 750 40x repeater rimfire actions. Their custom shop uses a 547 action that comes with a "guarantee sub-inch, five-shot group accuracy at 100 yards".

    https://www.remington.com/news/2008/...nce-and-design

    I always like the fact that remington has 6-shot mags instead of 5-shot and their custom shop rimfires are no different.

    All's I'm saying is in my eyes anschutz is starting to price themselves out of the market. A 1712 bbl'd action is $1700+ and a plain jane 1712 with stock starts at $2200. When you start getting into that kind of $$$

    If your looking for a 40x repeater action (700 short action) the 2500XR Rimfire Repeater Action As of may they still had a couple 2500xr actions in stock.
    http://viperactions.com/

    They're in the $1500 price range and worth every penny, they even have the already setup with a 6 o-clock firing pin. Timney triggers are around $200 & $500 would buy you 1 of the best rimfire bbl's out there cut with your specif chamber. Now your even with the $2200 anschutz. Add and stock custom fit/weighted to your shooting style/body and a gunsmith. There's a lot of excellent gunsmiths out the, was lucky enough to have Gene Davis a couple of hours away. He was pretty good and would make the remingtons flat out shoot. He used to re-barrel a lot of 1712's for silhouettes.

    When you start getting into high $$$ firearms there a couple different ways to look at it. When I was younger I had a couple centerfire 40x's built. They cost a little $$$ and at the end of the day the definition of a custom rifle is a $1500 rifle that someone puts $2000 into. A high $$$ rifle on the other hand will always remain a high $$$ rifle and do nothing but go up in value.

    You might consider buying a high end rifle to get your feet wet and go from there. When you get to the point you can outshoot a 1712 or a remington custom shop, you can sell them off and use the $$$ for a full blown custom.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    A lot of great advice. I feel like the 22lr is more complicated than any centerfire.

    Im kicking around the idea of buying a CZ that will workfor hunter class. Put a used 24x Leupold on it and start shooting.

    I can get started on a custom gun as money allows. I have a feeling it will be a lengthy wait with a good gunsmith. Im most worried about a stock that fits me correctly.

    I need to do more research and find the smith I want to use for the action/barrel work. I would like to find some one within driving distance for the stock.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with cz's, they are an excellent platform for the $$$. That cz lux pictured in post #3 I bought nib back in 1982, back then the importer was out of mn not kc & the boxes they came in were not square. They looked like this.
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    Always like that lux and never did much with it until 2007. It shot well enough & the pencil bbl was while not extremely accurate always seemed to hold it's own. Liked it well enough to send a couple 64 actioned anschutz down the road. In 2007 I decided to see what that cz lux could actually do so I tore it down and took a hard look at the the bbl's chamber/throat, the trigger & the bolt.

    I'll buy cases of rimfire ammo specifically for testing firearms. Meaning, I don't care about accuracy I'm more concerned with the sd of the ammo. If I take the "test" ammo out with a known preforming rifle and the sd's are in the 11fps/13fps range and the sd's are in the 25fps/27fps range with the rifle I'm working on. That's huge!!! Rimfires are all about consistent ignition and locktime. While a lot of people don't like moly in their bbl's or on bullets, it's 1 of the best things to use when working on triggers and bolts. This is what I use:
    https://0.r.bat.bing.com/?ld=d33CKxy...-_-080-916-002

    So I tested the cz lux with the "test" ammo and ended up with this target and high sd's.
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    Typical 1/4" 5-shot groups @ 25yds. While not bad, the sd's told a different story.

    Took the trigger and polished the mating parts and treated everything with moly, changed springs and used shims to take the play out of it. The end result is a crisp #2 1/4 trigger. To treat something with moly I use a light oil like 3 in 1 oil and add some moly to it. Heat the part with a blow dryer the wipe on the oil/moly mixture with a q-tip or cloth. You can tell when the moly gets into the pores of the metal because the metal will turn a darker color.
    The bolt was rural at best!!! It took a lot of polishing to remove the major tool marks. You don't want to remove them all (sharks skin in water), you only want to remove the major tool marks that leave drag marks and knock down the high/sharp spots. I did this to the bolt body and firing pin. Then I re-shaped the firing pin, added a extra-power striker spring and moly treated everything. The end result was a faster lock time with an excellent fp hit. I had bought a couple cases of the russian Vostok ammo to use in the russian olympic pistols. Others had also bought the same ammo and many complained about light fp hits due to the extremely hard brass used in the manufacture of that ammo. Great, not only could I use the ammo in the pistols I could also use it to test bolts/fp hits. This is what the cz lux's bolt/fp hits look like after the bolt work on that extremely hard Vostok ammo.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    After the trigger & bolt work was done I took the lux back to the range and re-tested with the same lot of "test" ammo. The results were the groups were cut by %40.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Playing around on the 50yd line with the lux and some ammo it really likes. THe target has mm's on it because I was sooting the target for a 13mm game on another website.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    That game came about because everyone with a $300 rifle and a box of wal-mart blammo ammo could do 1/2" all day long with that combo. The reality of it is if you could do 1/2" all day long then you have a setup that would allow you to be a national champion. Hence no need for the $4000+ anschutz's and $2000 cases of 10x.

    Anyway, the cz's are an excellent platform to start out with. Do some work on the trigger and bolt. The cz 455's have bbl's that are easily changed so it's not hard to put a full blown custom on the 455 or have your original bbl cut back 1/4" and a new chamber cut. I've done several bbl's this way using nothing more than the original bbl and a ptg reamer. I tend to like the ptg lilja reamer, it cuts a chamber with a tight throat but is long enough to really shine with mid $$$ match ammo.

    A dremel tool and these are your friends and will allow you to take your cz to the next level.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Good luck

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Sounds like a LOT of work to get the performance the bull barreled Savage w/target stock will give you out of the box.

    Costs less than the CZ, has far better trigger and a stock set up for target shooting. Leupold 541 bases go right on giving you windage in the base.

    Or if you want traditional, shop up an old M52 Winchester std weight.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Anyone have experience using an NS-522 from Kengs. I think there were only 1000 imported into this country. They got a favorable review from Gun Tests some years back as a silhouette rifle. An old shooting buddy has one. He reworked his trigger and shot nice 50 yard groups with his. I have one, but it is unmodified and I was never able to match his accuracy. But I was using an old fixed 4x Tasco scope.

    I swapped a Ruger stainless target 10/22 even for it. Picked up a spare magazine shortly after that.

    Anyone have knowledge of these rifle's potential.

    MIke

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    If you have the means to pick up an Anschutz, there's probably little sense in screwing around with going cheaper only to pour in more money. If not, bang for buck, you aren't likely to beat a CZ. There's less expensive that shoot well, but you'll be living with a lot of stampings, pinnings, plastic, etc... I beat the hell out out of the bolt of a Marlin 2000 (entry level smallbore club rifle built on the 25N action) using a magazine conversion kit to simulate the rapid fire stages of NRA Highpower. I think it's on it's third stamped sheet metal extractor, and the bolt knob travels significantly closer to the stock when locking than when new. Nice rifle, yes. Not what it was originally designed for, yes. But still an illustration in getting what you can get with budget rifles.

    The thing I like about CZ is that they don't cut corners "because it's a .22". While the finish is not what you see on the Winchester 52's of old (few things are), it's made from the same general mindset of "take large block of steel; whittle off what doesn't look like a firearm".

    You will probably need to fiddle with the trigger some to get the most out of it. I believe it was the Automation Solutions sear I dropped into mine 15-20 years ago - there are a lot more choices now.

    The tangent iron sights on the Lux and Military Trainer models are some of the best open sights you'll see on a .22. That said, however, they do keep you from mounting some scopes as low as you might like. The American is probably the better option if optics will be your dedicated aiming system.

    As for optics. . .depends a lot on the specific game. My original intent was to use the rifle strictly as a plinker and small game zapper. . .until it demonstrated an uncanny ability to stack bullets, and the 2-7x28 RF Weaver didn't quite cut it for that. I tried a Weaver 4-16 x42 that needed too-tall rings to get over the rear sight and didn't have the glass quality the gun deserves. Ended up with a Leupold 3-9 EFR in BKL rings that lets me dial the parralax down to .22 distances, and all seems right with the world. Odds are, for serious competition, you'll be spending more on the glass than the rifle - get comfy with that bit of information.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    I was all set on a cz. I found a 547 target in stock. Im really fighting hard to not order it on my lunch break tomorrow!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master GARD72977's Avatar
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    Well the delima is over. I just put $1941.32 on the credit card. Im not a fan of paying intrest so also posted some guns for sale!

    I bought the 1712 Sillhouette. Im pretty excited.

  18. #18
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    The remington 541-s sporters are an excellent choice for hunter silhouettes.
    Love those Remingtons!
    Pain heals, chicks dig scars, glory ... lasts forever.
    Retired USN
    NRA Life, NAHC Life

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I shot and won 2 years straight with a used Brno number one with a old steel tube weaver 10x scope. which is the for runner of the cz. I have never seen a out of the box Anschutz out shoot it.

    remember in the silhouette game every shot is either a 10x or a miss. no 9's or almost there. so if you have a rifle that will shoot 1" off the bench. if you miss it is your fault.

  20. #20
    Boolit Mold Wheelwaits's Avatar
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    I'm using a CZ/BRNO Mod 2 and a old Weaver T 10.

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