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Thread: Paper Patch Mould Dimensions?

  1. #1

    Paper Patch Mould Dimensions?

    Hi Guys and Gals

    Does anyone have drawings for a paper patch mould? I have a buddy with the CNC set up who can cut a smooth sided PP mould from a lee blank.
    Also Any suggestions on what size I should cut it vs what I'm looking to have it drop? It will probably be a simple lead/tin alloy for 45/70 and I'm looking for it to drop around .451 or so.
    Thanks for the info!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    You have to narrow things down .
    Accurate lists at least a dozen suitable moulds ....but.....
    Specific bore groove diameters need to be known and BP vs Smokeless patching .
    A .453 works great with 15-30kpsi in a .459x.452 . But I doubt that it would work well in a .450x.460 BP .

    Accurate as far as a place to look with numbers on drawings might be the best look .

    Slicks are said to be difficult to keep patches on but I have no direct experience to draw from .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Bullets with grooves work better.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    USMC 6638

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Do you want to shoot the traditional bore rider with BP or a groove dia.+ in the smokeless loadings? What paper are you planning on using as paper thickness also has a direct bearing on needed bullet dia. Bore riders need to wrap to bore dia. of -.001 - + .001 and are loaded with only 1/8"-3/16" in the case being long to center up in the bore. Groove dia. are wrapped to throat dia. or groove dia. +.001 and are set into the case more deeply.
    A simple formula for getting an idea is Paper Thickness X 4 ( 2 wraps of the paper used) + bullet dia = finished dia.
    So a paper .0018 thick is .0072 and a .450 bore so a slick is needed at .442-.443. Giving a wrapped bullet dia of .4492 or .4502
    My paper patched moulds are all smooth sided and work very well. I have seen the grooved sides and also heard people talk of "Knurling" the sides by rolling between a file and hard flat surface. One thing that's important is that the paper release at the muzzle every time not cling to the bullet going down range. This can be a issue when bullets grip the paper to tightly. Are you going to wrap wet or dry. Wet allows some paper stretch and can cause paper to stick slightly. Wet is a misnomer term as the paper is really only damp usually. Dry requires some practice but can wrap tight and little stretch so you get a better release and I think a more consistant wrap. You will want a template or paper cutter with fences and stops for cutting patches accurately. The end angles are normally between 30* and 45* 2 wraps with about a .030 gap between them so the light radious from the over wrap does not create a bump.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Michael - if you had posted in the PP category and looked in the Archives you wouldn't be posting here ... http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm
    Regards
    John

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Harter66 View Post
    You have to narrow things down .
    Accurate lists at least a dozen suitable moulds ....but.....
    Specific bore groove diameters need to be known and BP vs Smokeless patching .
    A .453 works great with 15-30kpsi in a .459x.452 . But I doubt that it would work well in a .450x.460 BP .

    Accurate as far as a place to look with numbers on drawings might be the best look .

    Slicks are said to be difficult to keep patches on but I have no direct experience to draw from .
    I have some grooved moulds but I keep hearing smooth is the way to go. I guess it all depends where you read. I would be loading for smokeless and I'm not set on a paper yet but was more or less looking for an idea as far as if i bore the mould to .455 the bullets will drop at .451 kind of shrink ratio. That was I can adjust as needed depending on which paper I end up sticking with.
    I'm running some initial testing right now and trying different papers and sizing. Its' been a fun project for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldblinddog View Post
    Bullets with grooves work better.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0399.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	69.5 KB 
ID:	201268
    I do have that mould on hand or a variation from Lyman. Again I was reading smooth was the way to go but as stated above it seems everyone has an opinion. Same goes for paper. Everyone swears by what works for them and nothing else is as good right?

    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Do you want to shoot the traditional bore rider with BP or a groove dia.+ in the smokeless loadings? What paper are you planning on using as paper thickness also has a direct bearing on needed bullet dia. Bore riders need to wrap to bore dia. of -.001 - + .001 and are loaded with only 1/8"-3/16" in the case being long to center up in the bore. Groove dia. are wrapped to throat dia. or groove dia. +.001 and are set into the case more deeply.
    A simple formula for getting an idea is Paper Thickness X 4 ( 2 wraps of the paper used) + bullet dia = finished dia.
    So a paper .0018 thick is .0072 and a .450 bore so a slick is needed at .442-.443. Giving a wrapped bullet dia of .4492 or .4502
    My paper patched moulds are all smooth sided and work very well. I have seen the grooved sides and also heard people talk of "Knurling" the sides by rolling between a file and hard flat surface. One thing that's important is that the paper release at the muzzle every time not cling to the bullet going down range. This can be a issue when bullets grip the paper to tightly. Are you going to wrap wet or dry. Wet allows some paper stretch and can cause paper to stick slightly. Wet is a misnomer term as the paper is really only damp usually. Dry requires some practice but can wrap tight and little stretch so you get a better release and I think a more consistant wrap. You will want a template or paper cutter with fences and stops for cutting patches accurately. The end angles are normally between 30* and 45* 2 wraps with about a .030 gap between them so the light radious from the over wrap does not create a bump.
    As stated above I'm kind of still working out the kinks and really just wanted to try to have a smooth mould cut for the $20 cost of the lee blocks. That way I don't have to get into it for $150 to find out that the grease groove bullets really do work better. I'll check the accurate website and see if I can find some feedback I know he cuts flat points and not much for spire points probably due to his machinery.
    I was hoping for some suggestions if anyone had a mould they like or could point me to a proven design from a website like that

    Thank you guys for the help.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Michael - if you had posted in the PP category and looked in the Archives you wouldn't be posting here ... http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm
    John boy I figured seeing as I was asking about a mould it would get a lot more exposure in here than in the paper patch section.
    I'm sorry if my post put you out by asking for some help. I guess we should hire a new group of moderators to cull all of the questions that have been asked before so this doesn't happen again

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Maybe a post in wanted or bullets asking for some to test. Will give you an Idea as to what might work and which way to go. My paper patch 45 mould is a brooks adjustable nose pour and drops at .442 dia with 20-1 or 30-1. I then patch up to .450. Randolph S Wrights book loading and shooting the paper patched bullet a beginners guide is very good. Paul Mathews also has the Paper Jacket both have a lot of information most feel the R.S.W. book is the better of the 2.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Michael - as you can see, you have zero diagrams for a PP mold posting here. And again, posting in the PP categories, folks who shoot these bullets would have been the source for a diagram or more. So, gonna help you for diagrams. Start looking here for 45-70 designs by bullet weights ... http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=14
    And since your buddy has a CNC, you might want to have him cut a .452 variable weight mold such as this one in my inventory


    And here is the diagram for the original Sharps PP bullet ...


    Finally, hope that Lee is a large block otherwise you only choice will be for runt light weight bullets. Good luck
    Regards
    John

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Maybe a post in wanted or bullets asking for some to test. Will give you an Idea as to what might work and which way to go. My paper patch 45 mould is a brooks adjustable nose pour and drops at .442 dia with 20-1 or 30-1. I then patch up to .450. Randolph S Wrights book loading and shooting the paper patched bullet a beginners guide is very good. Paul Mathews also has the Paper Jacket both have a lot of information most feel the R.S.W. book is the better of the 2.
    Good idea I'll give that a try. I do have the Mathews book and have been patching but I'm looking to try some bullets and play around with a new mould without dropping the $150. Just to see how the wrapping of a smooth bullet and how well the patch separates etc.
    Thanks man

    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Michael - as you can see, you have zero diagrams for a PP mold posting here. And again, posting in the PP categories, folks who shoot these bullets would have been the source for a diagram or more. So, gonna help you for diagrams. Start looking here for 45-70 designs by bullet weights ... http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=14
    And since your buddy has a CNC, you might want to have him cut a .452 variable weight mold such as this one in my inventory


    And here is the diagram for the original Sharps PP bullet ...


    Finally, hope that Lee is a large block otherwise you only choice will be for runt light weight bullets. Good luck
    Thank you for the help. I think the lee mould will be a tiny bit short, as their heavyweight moulds barely have any wall left on the nose section. Worst case scenario I probably have a couple junk lyman mould that I could have him use to cut a mould on.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I have 301618 clone from NOE . I've also used 309291U that only casts 307 with my fat alloy . I also have a custom Mountain Moulds 453-350 for a 45 Raptor that patches up nicely for the 45-70 .

    I'm not going to sell anybody on paper but the chain printer paper "green bar" works . I have some 197? receipt tape that does a fine job as well .

    I'd say I'm cheapskate . I'd say grab a sizer bore plus .001 and your heavy 45 pistol bullets and try some .

    Easy to try small investment .

    I patch 6.5 and 7mm also . Of course there's a world of difference between 14-30 KPSI and 45-62 . Doesn't keep me from trying stuff . Heck I have a 429426 that drops a 448 , a waste of effort in ACP , Schofield and Colts but fun to shoot . I may try it in the Raptor .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
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    I'm not going to sell anybody on paper but the chain printer paper "green bar" works
    A good read about paper for patching ... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...4782-Paper-101
    Myself, I found a source for old Crane cotton rag bank note paper that shreds like confetti out the end of the muzzle

    Michael, do as you may but I paid Fred Leeth $225 for the adjustable weight Pioneer mold. I can cast 300 to 550gr bullets with it and even cast 325gr weights for my 45-75 Winchester 76. I mostly cast 535 and 550gr bullets for the '74 Sharps to shoot 1000yds. Fred's mold is 'quality' and it was a good investment based on the original Sharps bullet design
    Last edited by John Boy; 08-06-2017 at 11:59 PM.
    Regards
    John

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check