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Thread: Groups, several rounds before it settles down.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master karlrudin's Avatar
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    Groups, several rounds before it settles down.

    I recently went and shot in a match this past weekend. Weather was great, ammo was right on, given some of my past shooting.

    Here's my problem? Most of us get good groups with a flyer. That seems to be a cast bullet rule, but it was taking me 5-7 rounds on the sighter target before it would tighten up to where it normally would average.

    It also did the same thing while I was shooting for score. The only thing that changed in the shooting time with all the enviromentals was the short amount of time between the matches, 15-20mins.

    Then I would have to run another 5-7 rounds to get it to settle down.

    The end result was I ran short of ammo at the shoot. Oh well there is always next time but I don't understand why such a short amount of time between relays of targets would cause this to happen. Comments please.

    Equipment, Savage 110 receiver pillar and glass bedded, Shilen 26" Full bull barrel floated, 7-08Rem using Lyman 162g bullets. w.w. with 2%Tin, gas checks glued on and Lee alox.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    You say you're using Lee Alox. Tumble lubing? How many coats? Straight Alox or JPW added? What Alloy? Velocity? Based on what you have said I'm guessing this is a lube problem, that is, not enough lube.
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity.......and I'm not sure about the universe..........."

    Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Were you cleaning barrel between matches?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    it's the lube in the barrel.
    search for CORE condition.
    or for C.O.R.E.

    as your barrel cools down the lube and stuff left in the barrel is changing it's condition.
    you then have to repair it.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  5. #5
    Boolit Master karlrudin's Avatar
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    Update, I'm using Lee Liquid Alox cut 25% with mineral spirits. The bullets are tumble lubed one time. My bullets which are wheel weight +2% Tin. My velocity is estimated 1412 fps if you can believe book data. I started with a clean bore, shot 10 rounds in warm up and sighting in. Then shot another 5 rounds to double check my groups in the sighter bull, then shot my 5-5shot groups, shot another 5 rounds in the sighter bull, and shot my score target with 5 rounds. Then did another score target the same way. Groups ranged from 1.6" to .680 going from cold to hot bore. The same thing happened with my score targets going from 8's to X from cold to hot bore. No cleaning of the bore during the shoot. Hope this helps

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    You might try a second coat of lube on the bullet. Does the rifle do this during practice? Another is if its getting better as the relay goes on, it may be the rifle and rests settling into the needed place for consistant recoil and shooting. You didn't mention leading being an issue so lube may be borderline. Are you getting a lube star at the muzzle? and how many rounds does it take?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master karlrudin's Avatar
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    That "rest" idea is a good one. I'm still trying to get them worked out, to much sand or to little in bag, etc. As far as leading, I've never had leading in this bore no matter what load I've tried, and there have been plenty. And I've always used the same set up with my lube. The only thing that was different this time shooting is adding the 2% Tin to my bullets. And yes I do get a lube star but I don't know how many rounds it takes. Thanks

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    You might try a second coat of lube on the bullet. Does the rifle do this during practice? Another is if its getting better as the relay goes on, it may be the rifle and rests settling into the needed place for consistant recoil and shooting. You didn't mention leading being an issue so lube may be borderline. Are you getting a lube star at the muzzle? and how many rounds does it take?
    Lube Star...

    I get a very well defined one on the rifle I am shooting. Does this indicate the lube is doing it's job?

    Thanks...BCB

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    It only tells you that the lube is lasting to the end of the barrel - i.e. there is some left to make the lube star as the bullet spins it off leaving the muzzle.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    IMO 2 or 3 thin coats is better, more consistent than one thicker coat.

    I would try thinning maybe half and half alox and MS. Perhaps add 1 or 2 % carnuba wax. And put on 3 very very thin coats. I'm talking drops here. It does vary by caliber, weight, probably surface area. I have not yet found one formula that works across the board.

    But for 30 caliber bullets I would try 15 drops, swirl, remove lid, put container in front of a small fan for 15 min, repeat, after the 3rd coat I spill mine out onto a cardboard flat with a piece of newspaper, used printer paper, wax paper, whatever. And put in front of the fan for half an hour. Normally at that point they are dry, no longer sticky and I can load them.

    I was an early adopter of BLL. I think you get similar results from 45/45/10.

    The carnuba just seems to help with putting a hard shell on the bullets. And leaves bores sparkling clean which I like.

    As to your current process. Instead of shooting 7-8 more rounds. Try a single patch dampened with ATF. Just a single drop dead center run it through the bore to clean, refresh the lube that is there.

    I won't say it will work, but it is worth trying once.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlrudin View Post
    gas checks glued on
    Why are you gluing the gas checks on?
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    it's the lube in the barrel...........as your barrel cools down the lube and stuff left in the barrel is changing it's condition. you then have to repair it.
    This is correct. Additionally the powder used is part of it. come will leave more deposit/residue in the barrel. A large part of which is carbon. The combination of lube residue and powder residue is causing the problem.

    What powder and charge are you using?
    Larry Gibson

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  13. #13
    Boolit Master karlrudin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    This is correct. Additionally the powder used is part of it. come will leave more deposit/residue in the barrel. A large part of which is carbon. The combination of lube residue and powder residue is causing the problem.

    What powder and charge are you using?
    So basically what you are saying is that the fouling that is in the barrel, bullet lube and carbon, is what is messing me up on the next set of shots. So if I dampen it with ATF or what? it will soften the fouling and not mess with my next sets of shots. Now I understand. I am using IMR 4198 at 18 grains. Est velocity is at 1400 +-.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master karlrudin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Dan View Post
    Why are you gluing the gas checks on?
    I am using aluminum gas checks that don't bite into the bullet. They are just pressed on when I size the bullets. I was advised while using aluminum checks to add a drop of super glue in the check to make sure they don't come off in flight.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    which doesn't affect what you got here.
    a lightly dampened patch could help cut the sight ins to 2 or so shots.
    it could also make things worse [shrug] but I doubt it.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  16. #16
    Boolit Master buckshotshoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    which doesn't affect what you got here.
    a lightly dampened patch could help cut the sight ins to 2 or so shots.
    it could also make things worse [shrug] but I doubt it.


    This^^^. It could make it worse, but you don't know till you try. Between rounds, and after a cool down, I would try running a brush through the barrel. No need for a thorough cleaning. Just a pass or two to scrape out excess lube.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    the thing about alox is it has a tendency to get into the corners and stick there.
    it will build up a bit then gets pushed [well more like drug] out.

    the way it works as a tumble lube is it provides a barrier between the lead and the steel.
    it tends to get a bit gummy under heat and pressure then go more solid [like the under coating on your car which is what it is] as it cools down.
    your multiple shots thing is telling you what the lube is doing to you.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

    Shiloh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCB View Post
    Lube Star...

    I get a very well defined one on the rifle I am shooting. Does this indicate the lube is doing it's job?

    Thanks...BCB
    Sure an indicator that you have enough lube.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check