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Thread: Brute force or stealth?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Brute force or stealth?

    Sorry this is so long! But try and bear with me....

    I'm faced with a decision of how to secure my firearms. I can likely afford one good safe
    that will in no way protect all my guns or I can convert a very large walkin and camp out closet off a room that shouldn't have a closet in to an invisible room.

    Can I guarantee that the room couldn't be found? Nope, but it's really in a place that it shouldn't be and I have seen some great ideas how to disguise things. Also it could truely be renovated to fit my storage needs. But while crooks are usually super stupid they always manage to steal your stuff.

    I could afford one killer safe that wouldn't begin to hold all my treasures but it would hold the best of them. I mean we're talking a true safe that would make Butch reach for more dymamite.

    I'm not sure going halfway or both ways make sense. If I do the invisible room all my valuables will fit into it and I wouldn't need a safe. I guess a cheap safe could serve as a diversion but then you have to figure out what you're going to sacrifice.

    My man cave is FILLED with gun tinkering tools and reloading equipment so the univited guest would absolutely know there were guns somehwhere.

    I understand that most burglaries are committed by people who know the owners somehow. In light of this, I have tried to keep the extent of my little armory as quiet as possible, even from our grown children.

    I thought about doing the hidden room near term and then skip a few gun auctions and then down the road sell my soul to Graffunder or the like and put the safe inside the hidden room. Best of both worlds! However, that would be quite a while consdering what I'm going to do to make make sure the room is truely invisible and fairly secure. Also a big ole battleship inside the room would screw up the organization quite a bit.

    I'm also worried that the floor may not support a behemoth. Such a battleship would surely have to go on a concrete floor which would mean the basement, which is a walk out...

    I know there is no absolute security and perhaps I'm overthinking this...what did you all do?
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I do both! The fewer people know you have any thing of real value the better is a very good idea! I have a coworker whose father who had several hundred thousand dollars worth of guns in a detached garage that none knew about! Skip the fire proofing and buy steel in a safe!! Even the best safes are just a bump in the road if a crook has all weekend to burst it! Don't forget to make cameras and a security system part of your protection plan!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master rototerrier's Avatar
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    Doesn't sound like I'm nearly to that level of accumulation! I've managed with a Cabela's Ambassador 35 (Liberty Lincoln) safe and a big HomeDepot Job Site Box with the double locks for all my ammo. Bolted to my cement floor and up against a wall. I figured it will thwart the thugs that just run in and run out with all they can carry. I have motion sensors and a monitored alarm with a wireless transmitter. All can be thwarted by someone who know's what they are doing, but it helps with the thugs. I also have it all positioned under a fire sprinkler.

    I actually worry more about fire than burglars. I work from home and am probably around 90+% of the time, so the likelihood of someone showing up and not having to go thru me first will be slim.

    But, if a guy rolls up with his own cutting torches and power tools, then he is going to get into anything I have anyway. He's showed up with a plan. I'd considered some of those super secure, and super expensive, safes and decided to compromise assuming all of the above.

    I also make sure I have enough insurance to cover the value of everything and I keep photo documents and a list of serials. I love my stuff, but I'm not the kind of guy that gets that attached. After all, we are all just keeping an eye on them until the next guy gets a turn...unless you plan on being buried with everything!

    If I lost it all today and insurance covered, I'd have fun building it back up again.

    I'd think a combination of decent safe(s) and keeping them out of sight would be sufficient.
    Last edited by rototerrier; 08-05-2017 at 06:35 AM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Ickisrulz's Avatar
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    A monitored alarm system is not much money each month.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Pine Baron's Avatar
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    I've got a big dog. Good luck gettin' around him.
    Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Good question by the OP.

    The hidden room depends ENTIRELY on secrecy. Once that element is lost it has zero protective value. Can you build the secret room without anyone knowing and can you keep it secret after it's built?

    On the other hand - No fixed fortification [Safe] will withstand a prolonged siege. A safe buys you time but will eventually be breached if the attacker has sufficient time to breach it. However, slowing down the attacker and buying some time is often good enough to protect your property.

    The hidden room is effective as long as its existence is unknown but once that information is out; it's compromised forever. You are entirely correct in your comments that friends and family members often compromise security. They may not leak that information intentionally or maliciously but it doesn't matter how that information is leaked, only that was leaked.

    Given that it's extremely unlikely that the existence and location of a hidden room can be absolutely be maintained as a secret; I would recommend going with the safe.

    Hide the safe so that it doesn't scream, "here are all of the valuables" to everyone that comes into the house. Bolt the safe to the floor and walls so that it cannot be tipped over and attacked or carried away. Build walls around the safe so that it cannot be easily attacked if it is found. And leave some sacrificial guns in easily discovered locations as bait. (maybe disable those guns by removing key parts and locking the parts in the safe).

    All you are really doing is buying time but a little time is all you really need.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    I like the hidden room idea with plans to install a nice safe at a later date. If you have the skills to build the room yourself then you also have the skills to add additional support under the floor. As far as security goes, multiple layers are good. A monitored alarm system, cameras, a dog and a room or safe.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Some of the best advice I've seen involves doing both. Hidden room? Absolutely! Even though it's hard to keep such things totally secret, keep quiet about it as best you can. Put a good safe in the hidden room, put your best treasures there.

    After all that you still need a decoy. If the local scum decide to help themselves to your stuff after hearing bar room tales about "the guy with all of the guns" they'll keep looking until they find something. You have to give 'em something to find. Get a cheaper safe to serve as a sacrificial anode. Hide it in a haphazard manner that allows them to find it but satisfies the "secret room" tales they've heard. Put in a couple of Hi-Points, a sporterized Carcano, and your worst rusted Yugo Mauser. Any similar treasures will do. With any luck they'll run off with your worst junk and never realize that you have video recordings of them to help the cops nab them.

    You will have a "nanny cam" to record them, right?

    Uncle R.

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub
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    Mean dog and a bigass safe.

  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    It's really SIMPLE !

    1. Get a good alarm system that does not rely on land lines. (screaming sirens, hidden cameras, strobe lights in and out, call center notification.
    2. Have your cell phone set up to alert you of any violations.
    3. Buy a special insurance rider to protest your good guns.
    4. Buy a cheap safe and fill it with $200 garbage guns with no firing pins or otherwise disabled.
    5. Install pepper spray bombs in that safe, so the scum think it's worth it.
    6. Elsewhere in your house, build multiple hiding places for your good guns. False back closets, under the floor cubbies, in the attic etc.
    7. Set them all up with electric deadbolts, activated by switches hidden and a ways away from the space.
    8. Equip them with multiple firing, time delay pepper spray units.

    Sadly Phosgen dispensers are illegal as are "set" guns.

    Three main objectives as in all good scams:
    - disinformation
    - protection of the truth
    - you knowing what is really going on

    Cheap ? no, Effective ? probably AND should they still get stuff, your insurance compant can never claim you were lax,

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub
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    From the sounds of it, you have NO security at this point, so anything you do will be an upgrade. Truthfully, this is a situation that should have been addressed long ago, because it didn't happen overnight. As that isn't the case, it really is something that should be addressed ASAP. Yours is a tragic story in the making such as;

    "The police found the bodies of a local elderly couple today after being alerted by their grown children. It appears they were killed in their house during a burglary that may made have been brought about by the a large cache of weapons that appeared to have been kept in the house. Police said that although no weapons remain in the house, other evidence indicates the number was a substantial. Police say the weapons were not secured, making them an inviting target for the burglar's. When questioned the adult children had no knowledge of the huge cache of weapons that are now missing from the house. Police are investigating the couples backgrounds to see if they had any affiliation with fringe or radical hate groups. At this time though the police have no leads to report in the investigation. Local political and religious leaders expressed outrage that such a dangerous situation could be permitted to exist and renewed calls for gun control. Funeral arrangements for the slain couple are pending at this time. "

    One solution would be to get that one killer safe now to protect the best of your treasures and then sell off what was needed of the rest until you could afford another for the remainder.

    Another solution would be to go for good, not best. If you can afford one killer safe you could afford several lesser but still good safes. I would get the number of safes needed to secure the guns and other valuables and then put them in that secure, "secret" room. If your floor can't stand the weight, either relocate to the basement or rethink your priorities or how much stuff you want to keep.

    Regardless, you probably DO need to skip those gun auctions for awhile until you ensure that what you already have is properly secured.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    the best thing is make sure there are lots of dead bolts on doors, no doors with glass in them. and make sure that by the time the last deadbolt is somehow smashed in, grampa is sitting in front of that door with oh say, a m14 loaded with a 20 round magazine of 110 grain soft points..

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Boolit_Head's Avatar
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    I was shocked by the prices when I looked around. Best I seems to find was a smaller safe at bass pro for 1200. Short while later I walked into the local Tractor Supply to get some bits and they had this Bohemoth that beat the price of everything I saw.

    I am not sure how good Cannon safes are but a 80 gun safe for 1k seems like a deal.
    https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...e?cm_vc=-10005
    On every question of construction let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.

    Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

  14. #14
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    First off I would NEVER buy a cheap digital gun safe .. Its battery powered .. All of the cheap ones have a single key to unlock them if the battery fails .. Guess what a good burglar has that key .. unplug battery use key they are in ..
    second forget # of locking lugs .. The ENTIRE safety of a gun safe is HOW much armor plate is in front the locking mech.. knowing the model of the safe and where the armor plate is determines how fast a good burglar can drill thru and open ..
    now it will most times stop the drug head looking for a quick smash and grab
    I carry a Nuke50 because cleaning up the mess is Silly !!

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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    You get what you pay for in gun safes! Do your homework so you can make an informed decision about what your priorities are.

    One of the biggest waste of money, weight, and space (to me) is filling a safe with sheet rock! If you want fire protection over theft protection go with rock wool. Sheet rock insulation protects by out gassing water when heated and really just makes the owner feel good. Buy STEEL, not sheet rock! If you really worry about fire you would do well to research where a burning house gets hottest, hint, it's the basement, where all gun safes end up in a house fire regardless of where it starts out. Most safes only stop the smash and grab burger. Semi pros are only slowed (a very short time by the cheep Chinese stuff) by a safe, and real pro won't mind killing you if the return is good enough!

  16. #16
    My new friend has purchased 6 of the large firearm cabinets from Tractors Supply Company. The Units are made of good quality. He had each unit attached to the concrete floor with 8 extremely hard 2 inch bolts that would require a torch to cut them loose.

    He made a concealed Safe room for his family to protect them during a breakin. The 10 foot Entertainment Center with a 20 foot Library wall that contains real Library books hides the 30 foot x 15 foot concealed Safe room and his 6 Large Safe from Tractor Supply Company.

    He keeps all firearms of the same caliper in the same cabinet along with the ammunition. The Wall can be moved to allow move safes to be added. My friend even has his reloading equipment behind the Library wall, after it was suggested to him by a local deputy. This reduces the chances that people would realize that he has a major stock pile of Firearms.

    My friend even has an FFL LICENSE due to the amount of Firearms that he has in his home. He advised me that it allows him to be able to purchase firearms and ammunition at good prices.

    Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Boolit Man
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    Brute force OR stealth? Why not both. Remember the unofficial motto of the English, "Sneaky's best."

    But there is a third method. I am congenitally untidy, and I am a true gatherer. The result it, my gunroom is a death trap for any casual or unwanted visitor. I even struggle to make it across the room safely.
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    That cracks me up...a couple of Hi-Points and a spoterized Carcano. Crooks are stupid...would they go for a zillion dollars with of reloading equipment based on that haul? Maybe so...
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  19. #19
    Boolit Man am44mag's Avatar
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    If you're smart about how you set it up, you won't need much to protect your stuff. A few good safes (not cheap locking cabinets, but not a bank vault either), and an alarm system are a great start. Most criminals won't be prepared for either, and the alarm makes sure the criminals won't be in your house for long.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroitdanm View Post
    From the sounds of it, you have NO security at this point, so anything you do will be an upgrade. Truthfully, this is a situation that should have been addressed long ago, because it didn't happen overnight. As that isn't the case, it really is something that should be addressed ASAP. Yours is a tragic story in the making such as;

    "The police found the bodies of a local elderly couple today after being alerted by their grown children. It appears they were killed in their house during a burglary that may made have been brought about by the a large cache of weapons that appeared to have been kept in the house. Police said that although no weapons remain in the house, other evidence indicates the number was a substantial. Police say the weapons were not secured, making them an inviting target for the burglar's. When questioned the adult children had no knowledge of the huge cache of weapons that are now missing from the house. Police are investigating the couples backgrounds to see if they had any affiliation with fringe or radical hate groups. At this time though the police have no leads to report in the investigation. Local political and religious leaders expressed outrage that such a dangerous situation could be permitted to exist and renewed calls for gun control. Funeral arrangements for the slain couple are pending at this time. "

    One solution would be to get that one killer safe now to protect the best of your treasures and then sell off what was needed of the rest until you could afford another for the remainder.

    Another solution would be to go for good, not best. If you can afford one killer safe you could afford several lesser but still good safes. I would get the number of safes needed to secure the guns and other valuables and then put them in that secure, "secret" room. If your floor can't stand the weight, either relocate to the basement or rethink your priorities or how much stuff you want to keep.

    Regardless, you probably DO need to skip those gun auctions for awhile until you ensure that what you already have is properly secured.

    All good points but perhaps the most astute is what Detroitdanm wrote. He's right. I don't have anything. We have a dog but he's more in the category of an item that could be stolen rather than theft deterrent.
    I have no choice but to go full monte on the hidden room. If I don’t do a first class job of it, it may be discovered. Although why anyone would put a room that size where it is, is beyond me.
    Next I will invest in a single good quality safe that is large enough to hold the most valuable items. If I have to, and I know I will, I’ll add additional support columns underneath to support it.
    I will immediately be putting in an area alarm system that is wireless with battery backup.
    I will also add an insurance rider for not only the property but the cost of the safe. If they get in, bypass the alarms, find the room, loot the place, and then spend an hour getting into the safe, they will have done tens of thousands of dollars in damages beyond what is stolen.
    However if they catch me or the wife on a bad day we’ll likely just hand it all over…
    The whole notion sounds ridiculous at first. We live in a wonderful area, fairly affluent, lots of land, private…hmm. High dollar thieves don’t burgle low rent neighborhoods. Might as well paint giant arrow on the curved driveway saying “Thieves park here”.
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check