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Thread: Fluted .45-70 Chamber

  1. #1
    Boolit Master



    Tar Heel's Avatar
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    Fluted .45-70 Chamber

    Folks,

    Here is a question for ya regarding fluted barrels for the .45-70 cartridge. I recently was given some fired 45-70 brass of the Hornady flavor which of course is too short to trim thanks to their LEVERevolution ammo brand. I noticed the brass was delicately impressed with negative flutes from the chamber about 1/3 of the way down from the case mouth. The flutes were not like the kind found in military grade hardware whereby the case is suspended in a gas cloud but these were more delicate. After resizing the case, the flutes are still discernible to the eye and can definitely be felt with the fingers when the case is rolled between finger tips.

    Do you have any idea what brand of rifle (possibly a lever action) has a delicately fluted chamber for the .45-70?

    I have loaded these up with 40gr of black powder and a filler to shoot in my T/C Contender since the J.D. Jones loads are getting a tad abusive for this old guy.

    Before you ask me, it is not a cannelure. They are flutes, vertically oriented, flutes.
    Last edited by Tar Heel; 08-04-2017 at 11:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Bad reamer chatter?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    A look inside with a bore scope may give a better idea of what it is. A chamber cast would give an idea but if its true fluting then its a mechanical lock also. I'm guessing chatter from a poor fitting reamer pilot first off

  4. #4
    Boolit Master



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    They are flutes. It is not circular reamer chatter but Longitudinal Flutes. I don't have the gun, I was given the once fired brass.

    I am not trying to determine what the marks are. I know what they are. They are flutes. The question on deck is: Does anyone know of a firearm maker who flutes the chambers of their .45-70 caliber guns?

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    It is reamer chatter that runs along the length of the chamber. Reamer chatter is not circular. You may be confusing the reamer cutting edge tool marks with chatter.
    Chatter is caused by using too high RPM for reaming while also having a poor or lose reamer pilot and reamer holder. Using a cheap straight flute reamer helps start the chatter and the reamer wants to dance as it hits the origin of the rifling with the reamer flute edges. Helical flute reamers especially reverse helix flutes help stop that kind of chatter but a straight flute will work ok if the feed is faster and the RPM is lower. Whoever set up the reaming process was lazy.
    I have a Browning Highwall 1885 with that chatter. It is an artifact of a poor reaming process and should not have happened.

    With my rifle you cannot really see the ribbed/fluted effect when the round is first fired but you can easily feel it when you hold the case with 2 fingers and a thumb of the left hand behind the case mouth and spin the case with the right hand. Once a tarnished case or a case with a dull patina is FL sized you can see the raised areas are bright and the valleys are darker. My rifle to shoots ok but I wish it had a smooth chamber.

    I have also seen this same reamer chatter in once fired 45-70 brass at gun shows and in ,444 Malin brass. What brand of rifles the brass was fired in was unknown.

    If your rifle does not have the chatter marks in the chamber they will go away if you tumble the brass and they will not return. With my rifle they are always on the fired brass until I shoot those cases in another .45-70 chamber.

    There are NO fluted 45-70 rifle chambers. What you see are longitudinal chatter marks.
    Last edited by EDG; 08-05-2017 at 01:46 AM.
    EDG

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    A friend of mine had a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 that left marks like that on the cases. He talked to Marlin about it and was not satisfied with their answer and sold the rifle.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master



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    EDG

    Is this what you are referring to? This is the best image I could make. The rifle was a bolt action custom rifle by the way. It is long gone. The marks are concentric and evenly spaced vertically as well as concentrically.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	45-70 Chamber Flutes.JPG 
Views:	30 
Size:	16.9 KB 
ID:	201139

  8. #8
    Boolit Master elk hunter's Avatar
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    I have a 71/84 Mauser chambered in 45-70, by someone unknown, that leaves the same marks and I'm certain it was reamer chatter that marked the chamber. Unless they're real deep it doesn't hurt the brass all that much, it just looks awful.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Was the brass improperely resized before you received it? I once formed some 40-65 from 45-70 and created grooves as shown by Tar Heel's illustration, apparently I used way to much lube.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Your illustration is correct except my chatter marks are much longer. They run from just below the case mouth to about 1/2" above the base.
    When a new case is fired I cannot see the marks but I can feel them.
    When I fire an old case that has turned a little brown I cannot see the marks but I can feel them. When the old cases are FL sized the high areas come out of the die bright and the low areas are still dark. The result is a set of light and dark length wise ridges and valleys. I have an old box of brass with those marks that I might be able to find and photograph.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Heel View Post
    EDG

    Is this what you are referring to? This is the best image I could make. The rifle was a bolt action custom rifle by the way. It is long gone. The marks are concentric and evenly spaced vertically as well as concentrically.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	45-70 Chamber Flutes.JPG 
Views:	30 
Size:	16.9 KB 
ID:	201139
    Last edited by EDG; 08-05-2017 at 04:21 PM.
    EDG

  11. #11
    Boolit Master



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    Your finger feel definition cinched it. You can feel them better than you can see them. Sounds like you nailed it. Thanks for the assist and your quality description. I learned something today.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewehr-Guy View Post
    Was the brass improperely resized before you received it? I once formed some 40-65 from 45-70 and created grooves as shown by Tar Heel's illustration, apparently I used way to much lube.
    It's not oil dents Gewehr-Guy. Thanks.

  13. #13
    Boolit Man arclight's Avatar
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    I am disappointed that there is a simple explanation for this. I really wanted to believe that the select-fire HK-1891 is in development somewhere. Maybe a competitor to the .458 SOCOM, but designed to accept an 1800s cartridge to accommodate time-travelling SpecOps teams.
    Last edited by arclight; 08-06-2017 at 05:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by arclight View Post
    I am disappointed that there is a simple explanation for this. I really wanted to believe that the select-fire HK-1891 in development somewhere. Maybe a competitor to the .458 SOCOM, but designed to accept an 1800s cartridge to accommodate time-travelling SpecOps teams.
    You never know right? Thank God we still have machinists in this country who not only can diagnose things like this but know how to prevent it. It's a dying art.

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    I have a Marlin 444 (JM) that has a "fluted chamber". I also have a Winchester M70 Classic 30-06 that had a slight longitudinal "divot" on the chamber wall. Both show the results of sloppy piecework vs. quality. Both of these rifles are remarkably accurate, thus they are keepers. Possibly something in the water supply of New Haven CT. at the time

    When I was in college I got a summer job working in a factory that manufactured revolvers unsuitable for suicide. The piecework rate was impossible to attain so the drones agreed to settle for the flat hourly rate, take it easy, and slow down the cutters etc. producing the best quality revolver that inferior wages could make. This short run had to confound customers and management alike.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I have a 9.3x64 Brenneke reamer that will try to leave flutes in the chamber.I never let it get that far.When it starts I wrap the reamer flutes with Saran wrap and continue.The chatter stops.It has to be real Saran wrap.The stuff from Costco doesn't work.

  17. #17
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    The little known Electric Gatling had fluted chambers due to the high rate of fire. Amazing that someone who has one is still shooting it.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Eldon are you referring to the minigun or the Vulcan cannon as the Electric Gatling?The chambers on those were not fluted.

  19. #19
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    Noooo, I am talking about the electric gatling gun as was shown in an article on them in Gun Digest back in the 60s.

    Nothing new under the sun.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master woodbutcher's Avatar
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    Several decades ago,I read an article about the original Gatlings.Seems as how some Navy types got the bright idea to mount an electric motor to it.Wanted to use it for repelling borders(this was in the late 1800`s).Said to have been wound up to appx 3500 rounds per minute.The brass hats said NO it`s a waste of ammunition.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

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