I did a bad thing at the Game Fair in London this weekend !

[nitro450exp]

Thanks

Nitro

[texasnative46]

Ballistics in Scotland,

THANKS for your helpful post. - Wishing that I could find a similar (over .50" bore) antique double-rifle that I can afford.
(I've seen illustrations of similar "shotgun gauge" rifles in 24 bore up to 6 bore & a member of one of the UK gun forums, to which I belong, has/shoots his grandfather's circa 1880 4-bore double-rifle.)

yours, tex

[texasnative46]

nitro450exp,

Offhand, do you know if that double-gun was designed for brass-cased round-ball or conicals??

yours, tex

[nitro450exp]

Tex
Unfortunately not for sure, probably ball in coiled brass. 1868 is the Greener patent date for the strikers, (Patent #800) they are not common so I would date the gun the same year as the patent.
Nitro

[texasnative46]

nitro450esp,

INTERESTING. = I've seen exactly one "shotgun gauge" rifle round. = a (about 2.5-3") 16 gauge, brass cased, round with what LOOKED LIKE a "shotgun rifled slug" for a projectile, that was in the cartridge collection of a Forstmeister.

Have you tried a regular (for example: US military) brass case 12 gauge shotgun case in your beautiful rifle?? ===> such a case just might fit your rifle OR be suitable to modify to fit the chambers.

In any case, should I find a "shotgun gauge"/big-bore double rifle or cape-gun that I can afford to buy, I'll figure out a way to make cases/cast bullets & a shootable load for the firearm.
(I'd REALLY like an antique big-bore CAPE-GUN, as I'd not have to figure out how to regulate it & I just like combination guns, anyway. - Fyi, my most treasured firearm is a "heavily engraved" 1890s drilling in 16x16x9mm Mauser, that I bought in BRD about 1970. = Money wouldn't buy it.)

yours, tex

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Coiled brass would be good, although I don't know if it existed in 12ga. A rifle designed around those would probably have less of a step down from chamber to groove diameters than one for the thicker paper case. That is desirable nowadays, for best results from solid brass cases such as Magtech.

Coiled brass cases usually had an iron rim, riveted in place by a mushroomed primer pocket. This material permitted the rim to be thin, and with the double express rifles they mostly kept to that rim thickness when they changed to solid-brass cases. As the extractor was wide, and moved in line with the bore, there was no reason not to.

There is a possibility - a slim possibility, since it would give up the versatility that must have been quite valuable in this gun - that it has a rim recess too shallow for the standard 12ga case. The Magtech rim is hollow, and could be squashed thinner in a simple home-made die, used in an engineer's vice.

I would put this gun a bit later than the 1860s, and it could have been anywhere up to the end of the damascus era, since it is in all respects perfectly suited to its purpose. Some of the greatest game shots stuck to both hammer guns and damascus barrels when alternatives were available.

If something did go wrong, back-country gunsmiths were happier to work on external-hammer sidelocks. Hammers rebounding to half-cock became available about the same time as the patent extractors, and for most people were a better solution. But as I said earlier, the patent strikers may have had more point with shotgun primers and higher pressures. Damascus, while not as strong as homogeneous steel, is amply strong for conventional shotgun barrels. Where it goes wrong is when it is impaired by rust penetrating into the laminate, or by raising deeper dents than should have been raised. This one seems unlikely to have experienced rust, and would be far more difficult to dent than a shotgun.

The damascus is paler, with less contrast, that some, and it doesn't look to be from handling wear. It is possible that Greener used a higher proportion of steel to iron than in his shotguns, and certainly more than in Belgium. It would have been silver steel, a plain carbon tool steel named purely because it was sold in bright-finished bars. This was the steel imported by Col. Colt, possibly as a result of his short-lived London factory, which enabled him to reduce the rear of his cylinders in 1860, and is still used for cold-work tools, such as straight razors.

[RMc]

This Round Ball Ballistic Calculator may also be of interest:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...allistics.html

[texasnative46]

RMc,

I suspect that a 12-bore soft lead ball at 1300FPS + would be an EXCELLENT KILLER at woods ranges for most any game animal in the Western Hemisphere.

yours, tex

[nitro450exp]

Ballistics in Scotland

I have seen a coiled brass 2 1/2" shell but am unsure of the date.
But since it is 2 1/2" and coiled brass not drawn brass it is probably period correct.

That is why I said that.

Nitro

[gunseller]

Just reading about British Bore guns. It sounds like 12 was the most popular. The most popular load was a round ball over 136 grains of powder. Nothing I have read gives grade of powder.
Steve

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a high regard for Buffalo Arms, for exporting some Magtech 24ga cases to me recently. They were prepared to take account of recent restrictions on export applying only to rifle and pistol cases. I see they now list 12ga as sold out, so maybe the supply is drying up, at least for the time being. If your chamber and bore diameter do suggest their use, it might be a good idea to lay in a supply, just in case.

If they fit, they will centralise the bullet better than plastic or paper, and that is more important with a rifle than a smoothbore slug.

I agree it would be extremely effective against anything in the western hemisphere if you hit it, and most in the other hemisphere as well. Trajectory is the problem, but there is plenty of woodland shooting where that doesn't matter at all. It is getting to the diameter where it doesn't much matter, on impact, whether the ball is soft or hard. Some of the early hunters used to harden their bullets with mercury, which is unavailable and very unwise to use nowadays. But you can use just as hard an alloy, of more conventional kinds, as it takes to produce good shooting without leading.