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Thread: Gotta have some room

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Gotta have some room

    So, I'm a member and I've been watchin this about paper patchin. I want to try it. So, there's gotta be room between the bullet and the barrel for the paper, right? I know you can make up the difference with different thickness of paper. So, how much undersize should the bullet be in relation to the lands...or the grooves? Thanks

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Generally you want the wrapped diameter of the bullet to come up to bore diameter.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    Lots of ways and different opinions. Lots of good articles on YouTube as well as this site. General consensus is to size down to bore diameter and patch to about .002 over groove or throat diameter. I paper patch .270 Winchester, for my Savage Axis, to the first driving band to my throat diameter. Had Lee make me two special sizers (took forever for them to come in). Some say to go all the way to the ogive, but if I do that then my boolits don't chamber right and it throws my COL out. Paper patching to the driving band allows me to keep the COL the same as if I where just going to gas check and lube them.

    Think of it this way, the grooves slice the paper off the boolit. As it cuts into the paper jacket, then the boolit basically rides the bore down the pipe. After 9 months experimenting I am starting to have great results now with Lee 130 grainer over some Rx7. Still working through the ladder test and it looks promising. Unfortunately my wife and kids cant stay entertained at the range all day like I can. My advice is to create a chamber cast. Plenty of articles on how and different methods. Then measure it out. I prefer a pound cast as I can save it for future reference.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    There are several techniques paper patching. depending on smokeless or black powder. A lot of smokeless cartridge shooters patch to throat or groove dia and the basic bullet dia is just under bore dia or at bore dia. Black powder cartridge shooters may shoot a bore rider or groove dia, a lot are shooting bore dia as it allows for more BP in the case as the bullet is only .125-.187 deep in the case. Here on a 458 caliber the bullet may be .442-.443 and wrapped up to .450-.451 with the 2 wraps of paper. This is expanded on firing to fill the barrel and grip the rifling. The best book I have read on Paper Patching for Black Powder is Randolph S Wrights, LOADING AND SHOOTING THE PAPER PATCHED BULLET A BEGINNERS GUIDE. Paul Mathews also has several that books that cover both smokeless and BP. The Paper Jacket comes to mind here.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master


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    with black powder as the propellant, the bullet is wrapped up to bore diameter or very slightly less. therein lies the hardest part (well, maybe a bit hard), finding a good cast or swagged slick and appropriate paper thickness to complete a bore diameter ppb. it's really not that hard. and as CG just posted, randy wright's book is the best out there by far - very easy to understand and overall good direction for a first time ppb cartridge builder.

    for a .45-70 i use a BACO JM443530E slick that drops at .443" diameter and 528 grains with 1:20 or 1:16 alloy, and papermill 9# onion paper with 2 dry wraps. it's a bore rider and OAL don't matter.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for all the replies. Great info. I guess I should have made it clear from the onset, that I am primarily interested in patching a bullet for a .58 muzzle loader. It's a TC, not a Civil War repro. I used calipers to measure the groove, it's .580 best I can tell. A slug and mics would be more accurate. So, from the info, I need to start looking for a mould that will throw a bore diameter bullet and patch it up to the groove diameter, just snug enough that the weight of the ramrod will push it down. Does that sound about right?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    That would be a good place to start.
    GUSA #6
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    That groove diameter PP bullet in a .58 Ca. ML will be tough loading with the deep grooves a ML has. You will be driving that ball down with a mallet and brass rod

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub vikingson57's Avatar
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    I agree with Lead Pot. For a Front stuffer I would go for the bore diameter. A soft lead bullet should fill the grooves with the patching. Just stick with pure lead.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Pure lead is what I've always used in charcoal burners. My understanding is that 'bore' is that measurement between the lands...cause that is where the barrel maker 'bored' the hole through the pipe. The grooves are...well they are what they are and they are as deep as the maker intends them to be. So, so far I read a couple of different approaches. First, the bullet should be about 'bore' diameter and patched up to groove diameter and later, the bullet should be patched to bore diameter (the bullet would therefore have to be 'undersized'. The rifling in my TC .58 is pretty shallow. It measures about .004, best I can tell. I've seen ML's that had .010-.012 deep grooves. Yeah, that'd be a lot of paper! Hey, my mould throws an improved minne .578, the bore is .580, the groove is .588. Should I just try one or two plain? Or, go to .575 and patch? Hmm. Yall help me cause I don't know...just gettin started.
    Last edited by 30calpal; 08-07-2017 at 04:47 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The bullet needs to be small enough that when wrapped it will slide down the bore without tearing/cutting the patch while loading.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

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  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks Don.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    You bet, keep us informed on how this thing goes for you.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    If you are patching for muzzleloader, do a search for Idahoron. He does a lot of paper patching for .54 cal. muzzleloader and yes, you want to be patching to a hair under bore diameter or you won't be getting that boolit down the barrel very easy. At ignition the lead upsets to fill the grooves.

    Here's one of Ron's posts:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...atching-the-ML

    Longbow

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Okay, reading again, .50 cal but the principle is the same regardless of caliber.

    Here's part 2:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...atching-for-ML

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Do you think there will be a problem trying to paper patch a minne style...with lube grooves? I see most of these bullets folks are patchin' are 'slicks'. Well, I'm gonna try it see how it works. Somebody forgot to tell bumble bees they couldn't fly.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Most stuff I shoot in muzzle loaders is grooved,minis /Great plains/postell and S+W 501 /RCBS44-370-FN are paper patched for hunting . I have slicks but they are for target use in my cartridge/BP and long range target muzzle loaders .
    Last edited by Edward; 08-13-2017 at 07:01 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check