9mm leading

[robertbank]

lead chucker if your bullets are .357 and you are using virtually any commercial or home made lube and your velocities are around 1,100 fps. then there is no reason for your guns to be leading unless you are using pure lead. That would seem to be the only variable. It isn't the barrels because you are getting leading in all your pistols not just one.

Casting God is not the type to pick on just one of us. Usually it is all of us or nobody. Your situation defies logic. I am out of answers.

Take Care

Bob

[lead chucker]

maybe the throats are too long. I didn't let the bullets I water dropped age for a couple weeks but the bnh is in the low 20's. I have to be doing something wrong. I seat the bullets out as long as I can with out uncovering the lube groove.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Might try a softer alloy. Real hard stuff can do strange things at times. I use range scrap mixed 50/50 with lead in all my handgun bullets. Even 9mm. No leading even when I'm getting them cranking up there like .357 out of a carbine. I use a lot of Lotak on handgun bullets. Carnuba Red works great too.

[lead chucker]

Ran another clip through each pistol after work with the water dropped WW boolits , 4.3 gr unique. seated boolits just to hide the lube groove. and I was surprised to see very little leading the ruger was the cleanest barrel which surprised me. The small amount of lead was very easy to clean out. There is a small length in the lee seater die that the top punch slides up and down so I set the seater down lower to hope that there isn't any swage down in the area that the top punch slides up and down. Wrong or right that's what I tried. I really appreciate every one trying to help me with this.

[JeffG]

4.3-4.4 of unique with 50/50 lube, same bullet seated to 1.07 is my go to load for 9x19. Alloy is air cooled WW with 2% tin. Typically have a small amount of antimony wash, with easily brushes out. You might be getting some wash too instead of leading.

[Black Prince]

Lead Chucker

I cast and reloaded my first bullet and cartridge in 1958 when I was 16 years old and have been doing it regularly since then except for the four years I was in the Navy. Using the old math, that means I have been casting and reloading for the past 59 years. I have been doing that with cartridges like 30-06 Springfield, 308 Win. , 30-30 Win., .222 Remingtom, .243 Win., .223 Remington, 300 Win Mag,, 338 Win. Mag., 375 H&H, 45-70, 40-65 Win, 38-55 Win. , 44 special and mag, 38 special and 357 mag, 380 auto, 45 ACP and Long Colt, and two months ago started loading 9 mm for the first time. The 9 mm was never a cartridge I had any interest in until I got an FEG Hi Power clone. Since then, I have experienced the same issues you have. I load and have loaded on a Dillon 550-B using Dillon dies since Dillon came out with it. I also still have my old Lyman All American press that I have used since hector was a pup and that I still use for certain long length rifle cartridges like the .375 H&H mag and others.

The barrel on that FEG surplus pistol (it is in good condition and shoots FMJ bullets very accurately after I put good sights on it ) mikes .3566 with a micrometer and .356 with a dial caliper. I cast with a Lee 124 grain RN TL (124 grain round nose tumble lube) six cavity mould and they fall out of it between .357 and .3575 depending on alloy. I cast some pure wheel weights. I cast some wheel weights and 25% pure lead. I cast some wheel weights and 25% linotype. I cast some pure linotype and 25% #4 Babbit. I cast some wheel weights plus 5% pure tin. I sized them .356 using the Lee sizing system because I didn't have a .356 Lyman sizing die. , and .357 using a Lyman die and 4500 sizer-luber, but they were not big enough to size .358. I shot 3.5 grains of Bullseye and they come out of the barrel across my Chrony at 950 to 1000 FPS. They were lubed with Lee Tumble lube. EVERYTHING I TRIED leaded the barrel for the entire length. I tried power coating and then DOUBLE powder coating and then lubing the double powder coated bullets with Lee liquid lube and they STILL LEADED. In 59 years of reloading a lot of different cartridges, I HAVE NEVER had that problem and it is apperently inherrent in the 9 mm cartridge.

I am not one to quit such a project, so I bought a brand new Belgin made Browning Hi Power Mark III and miked the barrel at .3565. (I drove a soft cast bullet down it and miked it.) I used a micrometer and not a dial caliper. Then I bought a new six cavity Lee mold that cast the 120 grain TC LG bullet ( 120 grain Tunicated cone, lube groove) and I bought a new Lyman 356 sizing die. Then I cast bullets of varing hardness as I did before into water as I have always cast them. I loaded them with 3.7 grains of bullseye and lubed with 50-50 bees wax and alox lube in the Lyman 4500 sizer. I loaded them to the recommended OAL of 1.110. They leaded the barrel in the new Browning all the way down and that load comes across my Chrony at 1040 FPS. They leaded the barrel in the FEG all the way down it and it didnt matter how hard or soft the bullet was.

So I took the .356 die out of the Lyman luber-sizer and put in a .357 die and lubed and sized some of those in different bullet hardness loaded with 3.7 grains of Bullseye. .357 is as big as I can size them because they don't cast any larger than that. It is raining today, so I can't get to the range, but I'll shoot them tomorrow in both the FEG and the FN BHP and let you know the results.

So don't think that what you are doing or how you are are doing it is somehow contributing to the problem you are having because it is obviously a COMMON PROBLEM with the 9 mm cartridge. I have had more issues with it than all the other cartridges I have loaded for and that I still load for. And when I say load, I mean a LOT of casting and loading because I shoot and have always shot between 20 and 25000 rounds of handgun ammo every year alone. I still deer hunt and still compete in area shooting contest and shoot on a team at the shooting range I belong to. I had hoped to use the 9mm in some of those contest, but as of yet, I can't make it shoot more than 20 rounds before leading starts screwing with the accuracy. I may have to just use FMJ bullets with the dam things. I am TOTALLY DISCUSTED with it so far, so don't think it is just picking on you. Now I know why I NEVER owned a 9mm and I am sorry I EVER bought two of the dam things.

[OS OK]

I try to keep a jug full of these plinkers around all the time...my Hi Power loves them and groups well but the 92-F thinks they are birdshot...it likes to pattern them.

Attachment 207579

GO figure? Neither weapon leads up though...this seems to be a constant problem all around the forum, wonder why?
Could it be also that there is a difference in how the short little lead into the lands and grooves is cut or worn? I dunnoh...but don't give up as this is just a little problem...problems are just a thing awaiting a solution.

Note: the top label says '126', that's just their max. weight since getting PC'd. They are cast from COWW's and 1% Sn added but, air cooled from the PC oven...no water quenching done...

PS: just read the post below...that's good advice about expansion. I use an expander sized .357" and run it into the case the same depth + a smidge more (compensating for the bottom radius of the expander) same depth in case as the cast will seat...then use separate seater & taper crimp dies.
My powder throw sits atop a Lee powder through expander die but all it does is to put a slight bevel at the top of the case mouth since it is mounted on the turret right after the expander die, don't want to skin these cast after all the trouble of making them.
The taper crimp is a seater die also but the seater is only adjusted so that it doesn't allow anything longer than the seater die sets them at.

[robertbank]

Black Prince pull one of your loaded bullets and check what diameter it is. My bet is your cases are sizing down your lead bullets. You may find the issue is with your sizing/decapping die not expanding the case enough. A friend of mine in Oregon had the same problem with one of his guns. His cases were sizing the bullets down to .354 from .357. He was getting leading like you were.

I am amazed at how many folks here seem to think the 9MM is difficult to shoot lead bullets without getting leading. I size all my 9mm bullets .357. I found .356 sized bullets would tumble in some of my guns so I went with .357 and never have I observed any leading in any of my 9MM guns which include:
S&W M&P 4.25" 1 - 18 twist
S&W M&P Pro 5" 1 - 18 & 1 - 10 twist
Tanfoglio 5" 1 - 10 twist Polygonial
FN Hi-Power
Inglis Hi-Power
Beretta 92A1 (2)
Beretta M9A1 Compact
Girsan Centurian
Walther M2 Match Polygonial
CZ 85 Combat (3)
CZ SP-01 Shadow (2)
Beretta CX 4 Storm
STI Trojan 9MM
Norinco 1911 9MM

When I cast I water quench my bullets out of the mold. I do it because it is easier than dropping them onto a cloth the way I have my casting set up laid out. It results in harder bullets BUT to be honest I never had any leading using WW alloy when I air cooled them either. I shoot about 10K 9MM rounds per year and almost all are Lyman 356402 bullets sized .357, OAL 1.10, over 3.4gr 700X 0r 3.1gr of 231 using mixed brass. Lube is Magna Red Hard Lube, Felix Lube or Xlox 2500 plus from LsStuff.com. I use a Lee Sizing Die, and a Dillon Taper Crimping Die in a Dillon 550B. I always put a healthy bell on my cases to prevent shaving of the bullet when seating.

I hope this helps. You should not be having the issues you are.

Take Care

Bob

[Black Prince]

Thanks Bob. I'll do that right now. But I have both a .380 and a 9 mm set up of Dillion carbide pistol dies and powder funnels. Even though the powder funnels are both the same, I tried both of them in case one was larger than the other, but they both are the same. I always adjust the powder funnel die to put a good flare on the case because I don't want any lead shaving when I get to the seating die and I don't get any. I run an RCBS powder check die immediately after the powder filling staion on the 550-B. That means I can then only use the seating die on the 550-B since it only has four stations. If I need it, I set up the taper crimp die in the All American press and run all cartridges through it. I do use a taper crimp on my 45 ACP cartridges because I have three different 1911 guns chambered for that cartridge and I want the cartridges to function in all of them interchangeably and they do. But I don't use the taper crimp die with 9 mm loads because my cartridges function through both the FEG and the FN BHP just as they come from the seating die. You can't adjust the Dillon seating die down enough to put any kind of crimp on a 9 mm case. In fact, it is impossible to put a crimp on a 9 mm cartridge using a Dillon seating die. So I don't know how a bullet as hard as some I have cast would be sized down, but as you say, that may be happening. If it is, I have no idea of how to stop it.

But this has been a project to work on and since I retired, shooting and hunting are all I do, so it has been interesting. My wife says that's all I did before I retired too. I thought I knew something about casting and loading until I got a 9 mm. It has been a PIA so far.

I may use the powder funnel in the .357 magnum set of Dillion stuff?? I'll go measure it to see if it is larger and it should be. I like reloading about as much as I like shooting so it's all just something to do before I die anyway, so Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???

[robertbank]

If your cases are sizing down your bullets the issue will lie with your case sizing/decapping die. It likely is sizing down your brass to a to small diameter. I share the same life dilemma you do. Hopefully our maker decides to give us enough time to resolve some or most of the issues we care about.

Take Care

Bob

[Black Prince]

If your cases are sizing down your bullets the issue will lie with your case sizing/decapping die. It likely is sizing down your brass to a to small diameter. I share the same life dilemma you do. Hopefully our maker decides to give us enough time to resolve some or most of the issues we care about.

Take Care

Bob

Well since the doctors told me in March that I could drop dead any minute, I don't get get too tangled up in many of life's issues any more. I trying to make it through deer season because my trail cameras have some really good bucks on them.

My dies are Dillon carbide. The powder funnel / expander on both the .380 ACP and the 9 mm measures .354. Those are both 543-F powder funnels. So I figure I'll just use the powder funnel out of my Dillion .38 Special / .357 magnum set. It is Dillion powder funnel # 543-D and to my surprise, measures .354!! So I pulled out an old set of Lyman standard dies for the 38 Special/ .357 magnum and measured the expander on it and it measures .355!!! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!! It is CLEARLY MARKED .357, but it ain't .357.

So if the expander is not opening the case to accept .357 sized bullets, I can't use other expanders because they are no bigger than what is in my press now. So here is the solution: Tomorrow I go to the range and try the loads I have just completed. They are cast hard, sized to .357 and lubed with 50-50 bees wax and alox lube, which is the old tried and true NRA formula. They are loaded to a custom length for that bullet and that chamber determined by the old method of marking the cleaning rod for seating depth. They work through the magazine and chamber of both pistols with no problems. If they shoot with no leading, then the problem is solved. If they lead, I'll order 250 9 mm Berry copper plated bullets and try them. If they shoot good, I'll order 1000 of them to shoot until I can get a new Cylinder and slide hammer and sear in that new Browning Mark III which has the absolute most RIDICULOUS trigger pull I have EVER SEEN ON ANYTHING and that includes quad 50 Brownings that I used to teach how to operate in the Navy. The new hammer, sear, and a new 26 pound mainspring will arrive here tomorrow according to my UPS tracking number. I also have a new set of LDA fiber optic adjustable replacement sights coming from Brownell's. I'll use the Berry bullets to get all of that done and a load worked up. Then I'll order 5000 of them and not be bothered with the quirks of the 9mm and various die makers who can't seem to make a product that measures what they say it does. If the Berry bullets don't work, I'll order some FMJ bullets. HAR!!!!

If I'm still on the green side of the grass, I'm going deer hunting right after Thanksgiving for a week or 10 days or maybe two weeks or until I get tired of it. It ends January 30, but I'll have to come out of the woods for Christmas or they all get their panties inna wad. Then I'll take a little break and to use my little Browning 22 auto rifle to kill a bunch of squirrels and cook'em up with some onions and make a big frying pan of squirrel gravy. I'll be cooking some cajun rice at the same time and maybe some brocclii or collards while the corn bread is baking in the oven. Then I'm gonna eat what my doctors say I should not eat, but I've been on a strict vegan (UGG) diet since March and I'm gonna eat some of those free range, no artificial additive squirrels. But don't tell my wife. She is already suspicious of my activities at deer camp.

This 9mm business has just been solved one dam way or another because life is too short to have to mess with it. Thanks for your comments and advice. We old farts have to stick together you know because these young whipper snappers are gaining on us.

[robertbank]

Enjoyed the discussion. Good luck on your deer hunt. Let us know how you make out.

Take Care

Bob

[P Flados]

FYI,

As I have posted a number of times, I too am still fighting a 9mm that wants to lead.

My biggest challenge may be that my lead is relatively soft range scrap, and my boolits only drop 0.357" for my Lee 120 TC mold and 0.3575" for my Lee 125 RNFP.

My latest "find" is that I have probably been sizing down the cases too much. The 9 mm is a tapered case and I found that I could raise it up at least 1/16" and still have cases below the SAAMI specs.

For those, that seem to have little problems with their 9mm, please do not assume that those of us who do are necessarily "doing something wrong". Lots of time people have problems with other calibers, but usually after trying a few of the standard "fixes" they find something that works. For many, the 9mm has confounded the caster and proven to be hard if not impossible to beat.

I am still trying, but boy is this caliber trying (my patience that is).

[Black Prince]

Bob

Roger that.

[robertbank]

P Flados it is not that you are doing something wrong. It is more likely you are doing something you do not intend to do like sizing the cases down to much. Easy test. Pull a bullet after you have crimped the case and measure the diameter of the bullet. If it is .356 or less you are likely going to have leading due to gas cutting no matter what ever else you are doing.

Good luck.

Take Care

Bob

[P Flados]

I have pulled lots of boolits.

The best I have been able to do is around 0.3565" with my Lee 125 RNFPs (these drop close to 0.3575", and I size back to 0.3575" after PC). With PC, these are marginal (OK at absolute minimum powder for Ok cycling if I hold the gun real firm). I do not really like these as they occasionally "shave" lead which can build up at the front of the chamber. It was worse until I lapped in more of a throat in my aftermarket barrel.

My Lee 120 TCs drop a little smaller (real close to 0.357" before PC, I size to 0.3575" after PC, but I am really not changing the OD much at all). I am probably closer to 0.356" max when I pull these boolits. These are not even close to "lead free" or even "low leading" at this point.

This is with my second custom (made at home) expander, and cases sorted by headstamp to get brass that sizes boolits down less.

I am thinking I will probably eventually have to resort to a new mold to get something that drops bigger and a new sizer and expander to match. I still want to end up close to 120 - 125 gr as cast. It is a real shame this gun is so picky since both the 120 and the 125 boolits shoot great in all my other handguns. This full power loads in 38 (1 gun), 357 mag (2 guns), 357 max (4 guns).

[ioon44]

One of the things I had to change is the sizer die ( as pointed out in post #50) , my Dillon carbide sizer was giving me a .350" ID on a full length sizing.
When loading .355" jacked bullets this would make the rounds look like Coke bottles and totally swag cast bullets, this was just one of the things I had to change to make my 9 mm loads to run lead free.

Also the throat of the barrel can have a lot to do with the was a cast bullet performs.

[gene10pntr]

I hate to hi-jack this post,but you guys are saying not to use the LFC die. What or how are you crimping then using separate methods? Seating then crimping,are you using a different brand crimp die? I seat with a Redding competition 9mm die and the use the LFC die just enough to take the flare out or pass the plunk test. Am I misreading what you're talking about? I'm fairly new to pistol loading as it is.
Also of all the powders I've tried,CFE pistol has worked the best for me so far.

Thanks for replies and help!

[ioon44]

I am using Hornady dies for 9 mm and use the Hornady taper crimp to smooth out the flare with out swagging my cast bullets.
I use Hi-Tek coated bullets with CFE pistol and have zero leading and my PPQ's are really clean after shooting.

[P Flados]

ioon44,

Your post #50 & #57 got me to thinking.

I knew my Lee carbide was sizing the cases much more than I need for cast boolits. This was in turn causing more than desired "springback" on some cases during the expander stage.

I dug around my old dies looking for somthing just a tad bigger.

I found an old steel Lyman 38 Auto sizer (I loaded 38 super for a friend long ago).

It is bigger but it does great for getting cases small enough to be an easy slip fit into the chamber even with pickup cases that were bulged all the way to the web near the base.

However with my first small batch, I found that some of my 120s sized to 0.3575" could be easily rotated in the case after seating.

I coated up a new batch and found the slightly rough ASBB HF Red coating miked out closer to say 0.3585" with no sizing. The slight increase was just enough such that the next (bigger) batch was found to have all bullets nicely snug in the case after seating. Pulled boolits are now pretty close to 0.3575". The loaded rounds a slip into the chamber just fine.

I am now going at this with a different midset. I know that my soft boolits are being sized by the brass. I see now that I should just accept that it will happen, but work up the right case sizer / expander so that they are sized down to the size I want. Skipping the extra step of using the Lee push through boolit sizer after PC is something of a plus with this new approach.

I have not fired any of these new loads yet, but I feel some satisfaction in just getting soft boolits into and out of cases without being sized down more than I want.