RotoMetals2WidenersMidSouth Shooters SupplyLee Precision
Titan ReloadingADvertise hereInline FabricationRepackbox

Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: "6.35x23 or 23.6(22) or 24 mmSR" Thoughts.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906

    "6.35x23 or 23.6(22) or 24 mmSR" Thoughts.

    Thinking about a ".25 Auto Long Rifle" Case and Cartridge of around .930" case length, made from swaged down "5.7x28mm" once fired Brass.

    The Metric Size would be "6,35x23.622mmSR" if Done as exactly .930 Case length.
    Rounding to "6,35x23,6mmSR" would be about .929" case length.
    Other Possible sizes are "6,35x23mmSR" at .905"-.906" case length or "6,35x24mmSR" at .944"-.945" case Length.

    This Idea is An Intermediate Length Between the .25ACP, at .620 (-.010) Case Length, and My other "Wildcat" lengths of 1.024"-1.056", or 1.125".
    It is Slightly shorter than the .22WRF case Length of .960" or 24.384mm.

    If made from the 5.7 brass it would be capable of supporting about 50,000psi MAP rating. The Case walls will Be thicker than Normal so should give a Long Reloading Life, even at Maximum MAP loading.

    Bullets would again be .250"-.251" diameter like the .25ACP and .25 Stevens Cartridges.
    50 grain FMJ are readily Available and, with Resizing, 60 grain Soft Flat Nose Half Jacketed (Hornady #2510), or even heavier ones are possible. For Even Lighter ones there are the 35 Grain JHP ones made for .25ACP use.
    Barrel Blanks are available at 1 turn in 9.8" Twist rate and Barrel Liners Are Available in 1 turn in 14" twist rate. so the heavier bullets can be stable in use.

    This size Would give a Definite Improvement in Velocity and Muzzle Energy over the .25ACP; but not be a Magnum Type Cartridge with their Earsplitting Muzzle blasts.

    Case and Cartridge Lengths in the range of the .22WRF would mean many rifles could be converted To this cartridge Relatively easily.
    Any Rifle or Pistol/Revolver that Could Handle the .22WMR (Magnum) Cartridge would be capable of handling this cartridge also after conversion.

    What are the reader's Thoughts on this Idea?

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 10-02-2019 at 11:32 PM. Reason: added mm conversion to .22WRF case length.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    "The Silence is Deafening"; but Not Defeating for me.

    I am presently in the Process of Reforming a Lot of 400 Used 5.7x28mm cases into 'parent' Brass for my Stevens Experiments so eventually at least some will be Trimmed to around .960" case Length for Initial Experiments.

    To Correct a "Problem" I have been having with a 'Bulged Ring' around the lower portion of .25ACP fired Brass (a .284" Diameter just forward of the Web); I have placed an Order with JGS Precision Machine of Coos Bay for a Straight Cylindrical
    Body .25ACP Finish Revolver Chamber Reamer with a .2795" Body diameter and replaceable Pilot bushing.
    It seems the SAAMI specified Chamber Reamers are "Tapered Body" and in my Ruger Single Eight Experiments the cases are 'Growing' at firing.

    Estimated delivery is about eight weeks so I will Need more Patience it seems.

    My Gunsmith is Back in the Shop again after his Second Knee Replacement surgery and subsequent recovery and Physical Therapy to recover Movement range in it.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-17-2017 at 03:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    I bought a New Lee Universal Expander Die and Set About Modifing It for a Dedicated Expander die for my 5.7x28mm case reforming process.

    Just Tried out my New Lee "Universal Expander" Die with the Small Cartridge Expander stem Turned To .250" diameter. Outstanding results! The Die / Stem expands the Neck/Shoulder of 5.7x28 Cases Enough so the Swaging Process Removes the Felt evidence of The Prior Neck and Shoulder Junctions. My Prior Expander was a .2500" Drill Blank machined With a tapered end and Chucked in my Bench Drill Press for Use. It left a Slight Felt difference in diameters in the Area of the Neck and Shoulder Joints in my Swaged cases.

    Very Happy with this new Modified Expander and Die!

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Spent the Last three days Trimming down 60 ea Reformed 5.7x28mm Cases from their Reformed length of 1.235" to .960" (the same length as a.22WRF Case) due to Problems of the Small Diameter Rims not being Gripped Reliably by Either of My two
    Lyman Universal Cartridge Trimmers; one new with a black Gripper and one old with a Grey Gripper.

    The Old one seems to be Marginally Better than the New one in gripping the Factory 5.7x28mm Cartridge rim. These have been Swaged in body and base diameter down to .276" all the way To the top of the rim; equal to a .25ACP case diameter.

    I think these Will be 'Long lasting' "Wildcat" cases as the Mouth wall measures about .019" thick!


    I believe the Inside Taper near the Base Web i seven thicker as I had to thin down the Body diameter of a Lee De-capping punch to fit the Reduced Diameter Cases without Jamming in them.

    I also drilled out the flash holes with a 5/64" (.078") Drill bit so the Lee decapping tip would pass through to decap them in the future.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,457
    One of the evils of the .22 WMR is in order to make it feed they made the chamber sloppy full length. So it detracts from the accuracy of the round.
    The sorry .22 WMR bullets do not shoot nearly as well as 40 and 45 grain Sierra Hornet bullets. Have pulled bullets from a box of .22 WMR FMJ replaced them with the Sierra bullets loaded much longer. They were so much longer I had to shoot my rifle single shot. Naturally the Mossberg 640 had a long jump to the lead and even the 45 Grain Hornet bullet still had about an ,080 jump when seated about .150 deep in the case.

    The tapered chamber you mentioned is nothing but a feature used to insure feeding of little rounds nearly as fat as they are long.
    EDG

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    I AM Waiting for my JGS Precision 'Straight Cylindrical .25ACP' Finish Chamber Reamer to be completed.
    Then It will go to my gunsmith to ream an 8-shot "replacement Single six" Cylinder for Testing in my Ruger Single Eight Revolver.

    If this Does as Intended, then I will eventually order more of the same Design in longer chamber lengths to make better Cylinders for my other 'wildcat' Cartridges.

    "Puttering" with my tooling and frustrating trimming cases to length. I cut down a Lee Case mouth champfering tool Length to allow easier removal of Mouth burrs on
    My short cases. The new tool has about half the Knurled length of a stock one. so I MAY be able ot hold a .25ACP or .25ALR length case and remove the outside burr now.

    Did some Checking on Reformed Length of 5.7xw29mm cases: for a random lot of 100 Reformed cases, about Half are below 1.230", most of the remainder are about 1.235" with six between 1.235" and 1.240" long before trimming.
    Date codes range from "05" to "15" in the lot.

    Pondering a "Better Way" to grab cases for Trimming. No reply from Lyman Customer Service yet. Looking at the system used in the Redding Case Trimmer.

    I note that Hardened Steel in a Cast Iron Bearing is not a Long Term High speed solution, even with oil applied.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-30-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    A photo of Some of my "Wildcat" as Dummy Crtridges:

    Left to Right: .25ACP/6,35 Browning @.905" OAL; .25ALR/6.35x24mmSR @1.293" OAL; .25 Magnum Auto./6.35x26mmSR @.1.566" OAL; .25ALS/6.35x28.5mmSR @ 1.407" OAL. All With .250" sized Hornady #2510 60 grain Jacketed Soft Flat Point Bullet.

    Note: .25ACP Case Length = .612"; .25ALR Case Length = .960"; .25 Magnum Auto. Case Length = 1.055"; .25ALS Case Length = 1.125".

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-02-2017 at 12:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    A Pair of Modified Tools:
    First, A Lee Champfering Hand Tool that is TOO TALL to use with .25ACP Cases was Shortened in a Lathe to allow holding the case and champfering the Outside edge of Mouth.


    Left to Right: .25ACP Case; Stock Lee tool on a .25ACP Case; Modified Tool on a .25ACP Case.

    And Second, A Lee Universal Expander Die Small Case Punch is Modified to make a .250" Diameter Case mouth Expander.


    Left to Right: Stock Lee Small Case Expander insert; Modified Lee Small Case Expander Insert with Lathe turned shank of .250"/.240" diameters.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    I now have trimmed 100 cases to .960"/~24.384mm length; 100 cases to 1.055"/~26.797mm; and 50 cases (of a 100 case group) to 1.125"/~28.565mm.

    I received a "care package" from 'Traffer' containing a number of prototype Swaged WC/Hollow base .250" nominal 67 grain Lead bullets that are Powder coated in Red.
    Very slick in feel and very nice in shape. I assembled some "Dummy cartridges" with them both as WC and as HP configurations in all three case lengths. These Do Look Promising as viable bullets for my Wildcat designs.

    The bullet length is about .505" by my Dial Caliper on one sample BEFORE Seating in a Case.
    So, There Will be a reduced Powder chamber Volume in .25ACP when seated for .905" Overall Length (about .212" seat depth). this is slightly more seat depth than the typical 50 grain FMJ use in .25ACP cartridges.

    I doubt This bullet will feed well at all in Semi-auto Pistols as the 'Square Edge' of either end is not the smooth rounded point a Semi-auto is designed and tuned for. Not a Problem in Revolvers and Single Shot Rifles.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Well, i submitted a Drawing and 'write-up' to "Ammoguide Interactive" as a request to add The ".25 Automatic Long Rifle" 'Mildcat' to their Cartridge Master Data Base.

    This is the .960" case length Version which might also be dubbed '6.35x24.4mmSR' as it is derived from a reformed 5.7x28mm case.

    As the Mouth Wall is about .018", this should be A Long lasting case for reloading.
    The Wall at the Web to Wall junction is over .025" so it is capable of some High pressure Loading in a suitable STRONG Action.
    Maximum Overall cartridge Length is suggested At 1.400" to allow for Spire pointed bullets, with a suggested RN-FP Bullet cartridge overall length of about 1.262" for Revolver use.
    Maximum Case Body diameter is Stated as .278" with the maximum Rim Diameter as .307".

    Now to wait and see if my Submission is accepted.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    So. Indiana
    Posts
    1,304
    You asked for thoughts so here goes, I don't see a market for this cartridge today. 22 wrf has been replaced by 22 magnum. Combine that with a 50 grain bullet in 22 magnum, it does everything your cartridge does. But of course it's not reloadable like yours though. The 25-20 does all this cartridge does also although in a bigger platform. 218 bee, 22 jet, 256 Mag. and 25-20 are about gone. There really are not any "pot" hunters left. It's hard enough to get youth to do any hunting. For a cartridge to succeed it has to have a want or need. As far as a garden gun, if a critter is maybe too big for a 22LR, then shoot it 2 or 3 times, problem solved.
    I don't mean to sound negative and experimenting with cartridges is fun and challenging but....

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Smkummer,
    Thank you for your thoughts on this subject, and yes, it does seem to be a cartridge design without a 'pressing commercial Need' identified.

    It is though; a Reasonably inexpensive project in development and future use as its costs in Lead and propellant are 'Frugal' for a retired person's budget.

    So far I have been able to develop and publish similar potentially useful cartridges of decreasing length and internal volume:
    - .250ALRM of 1.250" case length.
    - 6.35x32mmSR, of 1.25" case length.
    - 6.35x28.6mmSR, or .25ALS, of 1.125" case length (similar to the old .25 Stevens (long) RF cartridge but CF).
    - 6.35x26mmSR, or .25 Magnum Auto, of about 1.055" case length (similar to the .22 WMR RF cartridge but CF).

    And now this one, is following; in the .960" case length of the .22 WRF RF cartridge but again in a CF version.

    There is also the use of the venerable .25ACP case in a STRONG action at elevated MAP with charges of More energetic propellants and bullets of heavier mass possibly ranging toward 50,000psi MAP. but what to call such higher pressure loads?
    Higher MAP would not be a good idea for use in the weaker versions of .25ACP semi-auto pistols that exist presently in the real world.

    How would an potential Commercial Vendor survive the Legal Storm if someone was injured by discharge fo a 50,000psi MAP cartridge in,say a older Raven .25ACP pocket pistol originally designed to function with the old 17,400psi loading?

    Perhaps a longer case and cartridge length, which will NOT fit such older weaker actions is a good start.

    Again, Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this proposal, they are good and useful to me.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Today, Sunday October 1st, "Ammoguide Interactive" added my "Mildcat", the .25 Automatic Long Rifle, as entry 1011 in their Cartridge Master Data Base. So it is Now a Published Cartridge!

    This is the .960" case length Version, similar in case length to the .22WRF, but of .25ACP diameters. It is a Semi-Rimmed Design and Head Spaces upon the Rim, like both the .22WRF and the .25ACP.

    There are now four Published cartridges of various lengths in this series beyond the .25ACP of John Browning's Venerable design.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    It is time for An Update on this Thread:
    The ".25Auto(matic) Long Rifle" or ".25ALR" is a .960" case length Cartridge design published through 'Ammoguide Interactive' as thier Cartridge listing number 1011:

    SPECIFICATIONS:
    Bullet Diameter: .251 in.
    Max Overall Length: 1.400 in.
    Max Avg Pressure: 40,000 psi
    Rifling Twist: 1-in-9.8 in.
    Case Capacity (est): 10.5 gr. water
    Primer Size: .175 in.
    NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
    Bullet Weight: 63 gr
    Muzzle Velocity: 1,220 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 208 ft-lbs

    Note: the Performance is with a reduced load (~25,000psi Pmax MAP for my Custom long barrel 8-Shot revolver use).

    I have Modified my case forming process to use a .277" ID Hardened (Rc61) Alloy Steel Drill bushing as a final 'Forming step/Stage to replace base turning to remove the taper from my Carbide Ring Swaging and Sizing Dies.

    Chev. William

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    An update on this thread.
    The .960" long case for .25ALR is still going well in my Ruger Single Eight using a aftermarket replacement 8-shot 22LR cylinder reamed and rechambered to fit with a custom straight parallel wall chamber reamer of .2795" nominal diameter.

    I have not chronographed any loads yet as I am still gathering the needed electronics to use a "Labradar" unit instead of the present Light screen Chrony that requires setup between bench and target (difficult for someone using a cane to set up or take down and only usable at an outdoor range).

    I did buy two new NOE bullet molds (a 4 and a 5 'hole') in TL255-65-RF design) that I will eventually have used to make me some Cast Lead Bullets as \I donot own the equipment to cast myself and now don't think I want to go through the process of learning a new skill that has so much potential for personal injury.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 03-30-2020 at 06:47 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Spring Bump.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

    Chev. William's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sun Valley, California
    Posts
    1,906
    Been Idle here due to a stint in V. A. Hospital then a stint in a Healthcare Facility recovering from Surgery used to drain an infection abscess (MRSA) in my right leg above the knee.
    Then CA governor and L.A. City Mayor both issued 'Shelter in Place" orders due to this current Coronavirus problem.

    I did purchase and receive an order of Rim Rock bullets, Inc. 55 grain cast lead RFN .25ACP pills lubed and sized .251".

    Chev. William

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check