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Thread: Quick Q: newer vs older Shiloh 74?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Chris I've got a real problem now. That Browning I had rebarreled, and that Shiloh #1 both shot way above my pay grade this past weekend, so now I have to figure out which one to run at the regional next month.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

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  2. #22
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Parker View Post
    At any rate at this point I'm trying to figure out if maybe I've got enough cash in the kitty to still do the older Shiloh (fwiw the seller does do layaway.) Anyone ever in the position of trying to figure out two new rifles at the same time? although that would probably be biting off a bit more than I can chew. Hopefully someone here can talk me out of it.
    Been there, done that, often! And it's especially painful when you're enamored with both guns, but the funds aren't quite there! If the funds are there I try to buy both, but when faced with two that are both what I want, it's like choosing which kid to let go!

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
    Rusty Parker's Avatar
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    you guys are funny, now you really do have me thinking about the two rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpsguy View Post
    Forget the Browning and get the newer Shiloh. You'll thank me later.
    sharpsguy, I have to say I am really sympathetic to this argument, in fact I agree with it. But the price on the Browning was just too good compared to what I've been seeing. I'll have to pull up a thread from last year when folks were talking about the prices on these and update the thread. I don't think I'll regret the purchase and will definitely make it back and then some should I ever decide to sell it.

  4. #24
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    Rusty Parker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    You're not in the right company to be talked out of buying 2 rifles.... I would actually suggest buying all 3 and covering all the bases.. for now..
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunlaker View Post
    Don I see you and I do things the same way .

    I agree with you on the Shiloh barrels, I don't think anyone is building anything superior to them. I'm slowly switching over to being nearly 100% Shiloh for my competition rifles.

    Chris.
    Well, we'll have to see what happens when the dust settles from this transaction. While getting the older Shiloh is probably still "do-able" at this point, it is not exactly what I would call "advisable," if you know what I mean. sometimes gotta keep the peace at home best you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by marlinman93 View Post
    Been there, done that, often! And it's especially painful when you're enamored with both guns, but the funds aren't quite there! If the funds are there I try to buy both, but when faced with two that are both what I want, it's like choosing which kid to let go!
    I wouldn't exactly say I was enamored with the Browning, it's just after a year of casually looking for one, to have one pop up on gb on the very same day I was getting set to call on one of the Shilohs . . . well, I had to take that as some sort of sign. For comparison's sake, a week or two ago there was another one on gb that had the bidding max out at nearly $1800, and that one didn't even hit the reserve price! plus I didn't think it was as nice.

    so who knows, it's a bit of a cr@p shoot. At am rate I feel pretty confident that I'll be able to locate a used or as-new Shiloh if these other two get sold in the mean time.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Reading the description on that Browning, when it says "never had blackpowder in it" would give me a bit of pause and concern...
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Reading the description on that Browning, when it says "never had blackpowder in it" would give me a bit of pause and concern...
    yep, and that's not the first time I've read that in a description for one of these guns. Talking with the seller, he bought it new at the Tulsa show some years back and estimates he's probably put less than 200 rounds through it before putting it away in the safe. again, used firearms are always a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition anyway, but this one would seemed like a good risk. Private seller with gun having a known history vs. a dealer who can't tell you anything about a gun's provenance . . . we'll have to wait and see until it shows up.

  7. #27
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    Don that is a good problem to have . Did Eron re-barrel that Browning? I wish we had a good single shot gunsmith up here in my neck of the woods.

    Russty, I'll bet that it won't be too hard getting that rifle to shoot. A while back TexasMac on the ( Shiloh forum ) showed some of his load development for his Browning .40-65 and it looked promising. The key will be a bullet that fits the chamber well, and a good powder like Swiss 1.5 or OE 1.5. I don't remember what bullet and alloy Wayne ( TexasMac ) was using, but you might want to consider asking him.

    Chris.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunlaker View Post
    Don that is a good problem to have . Did Eron re-barrel that Browning? I wish we had a good single shot gunsmith up here in my neck of the woods.

    Russty, I'll bet that it won't be too hard getting that rifle to shoot. A while back TexasMac on the ( Shiloh forum ) showed some of his load development for his Browning .40-65 and it looked promising. The key will be a bullet that fits the chamber well, and a good powder like Swiss 1.5 or OE 1.5. I don't remember what bullet and alloy Wayne ( TexasMac ) was using, but you might want to consider asking him.

    Chris.
    I spent a good amount of time a couple of weeks ago reading all I could find on the Browning 40-65s, apparently there's a couple of issues that present challenges. The chamber is usually too long to use Starline 40-65 brass, so most folks recommend re-sizing 45-70 brass for optimal results. Also I understand the chamber is tapered right before the rifling, so the bullet design optimally includes a tapered nose. I've not shot 40-65 before, but it sounded challenging enough that it put me off that other Browning two weeks ago and put me back on the Shiloh hunt. I know Wayne/TexasMac has the book on these rifles, he was out of town in July, otherwise I would have bought it last month, I'll probably buy it now. But I'll have to get back on the Shiloh forum and see if I can find the thread you're talking about on his load development for .40-65, so thanks.

    As an aside, I notice that Wayne seems to put in a bid on every single Browning BPCR rifle that comes up on gb, but he seems to max out at $1100-1200 at the most from what I can gather. I suppose he has to figure in his resale price, unless he just bids as a place marker to follow the auctions.

  9. #29
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    I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Chris, yes Eron did the barrel work and the trigger job.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpsguy View Post
    I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.

    sharpsguy, it's gonna happen!! maybe just not this week. Soon, though.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpsguy View Post
    I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.
    I think you can't go wrong that way for sure. To be honest, I'll never buy another BPCR/BPTR rifle unless it's a Shiloh, or a gun built by one of the few really talented single shot gunsmiths.

    Chris.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master OlDeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Parker View Post
    sharpsguy, it's gonna happen!! maybe just not this week. Soon, though.
    Do the B2xxx My shiloh is a B2xxx......the wood fits Perfect ! The rifle Shoots !!! Ol Deuce
    Do the Best with What you have !

  14. #34
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    The .40-65 Browning chamber is not tapered. Browning designed in a free bore between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling. In my rifle this results in .150 of full diameter bullet exposed ahead of the case mouth when the common Lyman 410663 bullet is chambered to touch the lands. Ahead of the free bore is the standard lead angle that is found in most well designed modern rifles. This is compared to the abrupt angle used at the end of the 45-70 chamber. However I would not call the Browning chamber tapered since it follows best current practice. At least every modern rifle that I own has a conventional tapered leade other than the SAAMI chambers in the 45-70 and the .30-30 and a few other old timers.
    The bullets that I use are .410 in diameter. If you look around the internet you will probably be able to find a photo of a Browning 40-65 chamber cast.

    My 40-65 chamber is 2.125" long so the Starline brass is a little short. I make my brass from R-P and WW brass.

    One thing that makes a lot of difference with me is the much more convenient shooting with a Highwall.
    After firing this is what happens with a Sharps.
    1. Pull the hammer to 1/2 cock (to prevent breaking the firing pin).
    2. Pull the lever down to open the falling block.
    3. Remove the fired case.
    4. Reload the chamber
    5. Close the action.
    6. Pull hammer back to full cock.
    7. Pull rear trigger until it sets
    (Note this is a silly process. The rear trigger may take 10 to 15 lbs to set it. You tire your trigger finger doing this. Then you try to use that same finger to pull the very light pull of the firing front trigger. This degrades your trigger control compared to single trigger rifle )
    8. Sight and fire.

    I shot the Browning Highwalls in several versions about 20 years before I bought a Sharps clone. I found the extra steps a little tedious and the setting of the double set triggers an outright nuisance. I loathe the double set triggers. But then I shot many fine bolt gun triggers including 3 lever Broughton and Canjar triggers before the Sharps double set triggers. I find the double sets that detract rather than add to BPCR rifles.

    To shoot a Highwall you do the following
    1. Open the action
    2. Remove the fired case.
    3. Reload the chamber
    4. Close the action
    5. Sight and fire.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Parker View Post
    I spent a good amount of time a couple of weeks ago reading all I could find on the Browning 40-65s, apparently there's a couple of issues that present challenges. The chamber is usually too long to use Starline 40-65 brass, so most folks recommend re-sizing 45-70 brass for optimal results. Also I understand the chamber is tapered right before the rifling, so the bullet design optimally includes a tapered nose. I've not shot 40-65 before, but it sounded challenging enough that it put me off that other Browning two weeks ago and put me back on the Shiloh hunt. I know Wayne/TexasMac has the book on these rifles, he was out of town in July, otherwise I would have bought it last month, I'll probably buy it now. But I'll have to get back on the Shiloh forum and see if I can find the thread you're talking about on his load development for .40-65, so thanks.

    As an aside, I notice that Wayne seems to put in a bid on every single Browning BPCR rifle that comes up on gb, but he seems to max out at $1100-1200 at the most from what I can gather. I suppose he has to figure in his resale price, unless he just bids as a place marker to follow the auctions.
    EDG

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Parker View Post
    yep, and that's not the first time I've read that in a description for one of these guns. Talking with the seller, he bought it new at the Tulsa show some years back and estimates he's probably put less than 200 rounds through it before putting it away in the safe. again, used firearms are always a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition anyway, but this one would seemed like a good risk. Private seller with gun having a known history vs. a dealer who can't tell you anything about a gun's provenance . . . we'll have to wait and see until it shows up.
    The guy put it away because it won't shoot.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlDeuce View Post
    Do the B2xxx My shiloh is a B2xxx......the wood fits Perfect ! The rifle Shoots !!! Ol Deuce
    still in the running!

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    The .40-65 Browning chamber is not tapered. Browning designed in a free bore between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling. In my rifle this results in .150 of full diameter bullet exposed ahead of the case mouth when the common Lyman 410663 bullet is chambered to touch the lands. Ahead of the free bore is the standard lead angle that is found in most well designed modern rifles. This is compared to the abrupt angle used at the end of the 45-70 chamber. However I would not call the Browning chamber tapered since it follows best current practice. At least every modern rifle that I own has a conventional tapered leade other than the SAAMI chambers in the 45-70 and the .30-30 and a few other old timers.
    The bullets that I use are .410 in diameter. If you look around the internet you will probably be able to find a photo of a Browning 40-65 chamber cast.
    I got Wayne's book and read it over the weekend. He includes load info from 15 or 20 people, the Lyman 410663 shows up several times as does the SAECO #740. I will probably get each mold and play around with each. Folks were split between sizing .410 vs .409, so I'll get sizers for each.

    My 40-65 chamber is 2.125" long so the Starline brass is a little short. I make my brass from R-P and WW brass.
    The brass from the seller showed up today, half of it is Starline 40-65 cases and the other half mostly resized R-P 45-70 with a few WW 45-70 thrown in. I'll have to see how they all look length-wise when I get them out to the reloading bench.

    One thing that makes a lot of difference with me is the much more convenient shooting with a Highwall.
    After firing this is what happens with a Sharps.
    1. Pull the hammer to 1/2 cock (to prevent breaking the firing pin).
    2. Pull the lever down to open the falling block.
    3. Remove the fired case.
    4. Reload the chamber
    5. Close the action.
    6. Pull hammer back to full cock.
    7. Pull rear trigger until it sets
    (Note this is a silly process. The rear trigger may take 10 to 15 lbs to set it. You tire your trigger finger doing this. Then you try to use that same finger to pull the very light pull of the firing front trigger. This degrades your trigger control compared to single trigger rifle )
    8. Sight and fire.

    I shot the Browning Highwalls in several versions about 20 years before I bought a Sharps clone. I found the extra steps a little tedious and the setting of the double set triggers an outright nuisance. I loathe the double set triggers. But then I shot many fine bolt gun triggers including 3 lever Broughton and Canjar triggers before the Sharps double set triggers. I find the double sets that detract rather than add to BPCR rifles.

    To shoot a Highwall you do the following
    1. Open the action
    2. Remove the fired case.
    3. Reload the chamber
    4. Close the action
    5. Sight and fire.
    If I end up liking this rifle, it may replace the Miroku 38-55 for SASS side matches. For the SASS timed events, the highwall certainly makes a lot of sense.

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cash View Post
    The guy put it away because it won't shoot.
    maybe. but he also said the ranch his club shot at lost its lease when the ranch was sold. So most of his silhouette guns got put away, sounds like he's got some more that he's going to try and sell this fall.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check