RotoMetals2Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyInline Fabrication
Titan ReloadingRepackboxLoad DataReloading Everything
Wideners
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: i have tons of 38 special cases ...what is a good FFF or FFFF load.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MUSKOGEE
    Posts
    1,516

    i have tons of 38 special cases ...what is a good FFF or FFFF load.

    i thought i'd load up some real smokers! ....you know...as in smoke!...not speed.

    i have 140 & 160 grain cast keith style boolits. thought i'd load em up cuz i have a pound of each powder.

    so whats a good load?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Maine
    Posts
    722
    I've never loaded black powder so take this for what it is worth... I don't think it is safe to use regular loading equipment to load black powder. You didn't say that you were, I just wanted to point that out, just in case.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    North Central Washington
    Posts
    733
    When I loaded black powder in 38 to shoot in a 357 gun, I just filled up the case to the bottom of the projectile. Now, I never used 4F, but I did use 3F.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy


    whtsmoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    160
    do not use 4f powder in your loads, its a priming powder only as i have been told.
    We were brothers then, we are brothers now, we are brothers forever. Currahee

  5. #5
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    So. Indiana
    Posts
    1,861
    I have an old hodgdon pyrodex/black powder manual dated 1981 that states 16 grains of FFF behind a 158 bullet for the 38 S&W special. Most likely that assumes a modern web case. The same manual states 18 grains behind a 150 grain bullet in the 38 long Colt, that seems odd unless the LC case is balloon.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy ikarus1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    186
    Hodgdon has triple 7 metallic cartridge data on its website. Since its stronger than BP i would think any load in that is safe for BP usage. Honestly in a modern revolver you cant fit enough BP in a .38 to harm it

  7. #7
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Beautiful Idaho
    Posts
    2,644
    The Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual has load recommendations for 150, 158 and 170 gr bullets with several different brands of black powder for use in 38spl cases. If you have a load in mind I'll see if it's mentioned. PM me if. Gp

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by mozeppa View Post
    i thought i'd load up some real smokers! ....you know...as in smoke!...not speed.

    i have 140 & 160 grain cast keith style boolits. thought i'd load em up cuz i have a pound of each powder.

    so whats a good load?
    I'd fill them up. Compress the charge with the bullet, light or no crimp. That will be stout for those light bullets. Reloading wise, just be careful with the powder measure, if youre weighing by hand each load, no problem, but mechanical measure needs to be a material that wont create static, esp if it is holding a 1/4 pount of BP in the reservoir. Such as this ... Lyman No Classic Black Powder Measure
    -Mike

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,855
    It would probably be better to load by volume rather than a scale. A black powder measure is brass and not very expensive, I guess. I haven't bought one since 1975..
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    From "Outdoor Recreation" July 1919:

    A Cap and Ball Revolver ARP Galena Md Your revolver is probably what used to be known as a 36 caliber The 38 special bullet measures 358 You can probably obtain bullet molds from Francis Bannerman Broadway New York City It is our impression that the Remington revolvers of the period you mention were mostly used by the Navy but may have been used in the army as well We could not prescribe a powder charge but you can readily work one out Would suggest you obtain a fine quick burning black powder such as Hazard's FFFFG and experiment to see which load gives the best results As to their accuracy it we believe all the reports of them they were marvelous but would not want to vouch for them Editor
    -Mike

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom W. View Post
    It would probably be better to load by volume rather than a scale. A black powder measure is brass and not very expensive, I guess. I haven't bought one since 1975..
    Yeah, I'm not very technical with black powder, pretty much find a dipper that fills the case and go crazy.
    -Mike

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    Original factory BP loads were 21 grains or 21.5 grains. Not sure the granularity -- FFFG? I can't get more than 18 or 19 grains in a modern 38 special case. Then you have a lot of compression. 18 Grains, I believe, was the 38 Long Colt factory/official load.
    -Mike

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    gardners pa.
    Posts
    3,443
    first you will need a bp lube like spg. if not don't expect much for accuracy.

    in mike venturino's book shooting colt single actions. he give a load of 19 gr. 3f with a 158 gr. bullet for 830 fps.

    I load by volume. you do need a good crimp.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    964
    Solder a wire handle to a 38 spl brass. Use that as a dipper, fill the case full, then compress. Black powder cannot have any void, so fill her up, and your good to go.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,299
    Years ago a friend showed up with a S&W M1902 M&P in good shootable shape. He wanted some "original" BP loads for it. According to Phi Sharpe's book, Complete Guide to Handloading, the BP load was 20.6 gr of fffg under a 158 gr bullet. We soon found that was with older balloon head cases. We settled on 18 gr (by weight) of Dupont fffg in R-P 38 SPL 148 WC cases as the sides are thinner deeper into the case for the WCs. He sized the cases in a FL steel RCBS die. The cases were then belled. "HOT" primers were said to be best so we primed them with CCI 550s.

    A scoop was made soldering a wire handle to a steel 45 ACP case and then filing down to hold 18 gr. I made a compression plug that was used in the seating die. It was slipped into the case on top of the powder then "sized" in the seat die which compressed the powder to the seating depth of the bullet. The plug was removed and used in the next case, etc.

    The bullet we used was a 358431 of which he had cast of 40-1 alloy. He had sized them at .359 and lubed with a homemade Crisco based lube. They weighed close to 160 gr. They were seated to the crimp groove and a heavy crimp applied.

    The BP loads shot just fine in the old M&P. I chronographed them at 840 fps out of the 6" barreled M&P (might have been a 5" ?). My friend passed away several years back but he was shooting the M&P up till then. Don't know what happened to the M&P.....unfortunately......
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,946

    Thumbs up

    A big "thumbs up" for Larry's sage advice (above)! As for BP bullet lubes, there are many besides SPG, including Felix Lube and Stumpy's Moose Snot.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Years ago a friend showed up with a S&W M1902 M&P in good shootable shape. He wanted some "original" BP loads for it. According to Phi Sharpe's book, Complete Guide to Handloading, the BP load was 20.6 gr of fffg under a 158 gr bullet. We soon found that was with older balloon head cases. We settled on 18 gr (by weight) of Dupont fffg in R-P 38 SPL 148 WC cases as the sides are thinner deeper into the case for the WCs. He sized the cases in a FL steel RCBS die. The cases were then belled. "HOT" primers were said to be best so we primed them with CCI 550s.

    A scoop was made soldering a wire handle to a steel 45 ACP case and then filing down to hold 18 gr. I made a compression plug that was used in the seating die. It was slipped into the case on top of the powder then "sized" in the seat die which compressed the powder to the seating depth of the bullet. The plug was removed and used in the next case, etc.

    The bullet we used was a 358431 of which he had cast of 40-1 alloy. He had sized them at .359 and lubed with a homemade Crisco based lube. They weighed close to 160 gr. They were seated to the crimp groove and a heavy crimp applied.

    The BP loads shot just fine in the old M&P. I chronographed them at 840 fps out of the 6" barreled M&P (might have been a 5" ?). My friend passed away several years back but he was shooting the M&P up till then. Don't know what happened to the M&P.....unfortunately......
    Yes, the M&P will shoot BP loads all day. Great weapon. I couldn't find the Black Powder loads in the Sharpe book, just the semi-smokeless. But then I read the whole entry. Wow, the mind is a terrible thing to waste....
    -Mike

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,299
    Quote Originally Posted by tucumcari_kid View Post
    Yes, the M&P will shoot BP loads all day. Great weapon. I couldn't find the Black Powder loads in the Sharpe book, just the semi-smokeless. But then I read the whole entry. Wow, the mind is a terrible thing to waste....
    Yes the "Kings semi-smokeless" powder load is the closest to actual BP in his table of 38 SPL loads (pp's 408 and 409). He gives the bullet weight and original BP load in the narrative on page 408, 1st and 2nd paragraphs.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy



    tucumcari_kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Yes the "Kings semi-smokeless" powder load is the closest to actual BP in his table of 38 SPL loads (pp's 408 and 409). He gives the bullet weight and original BP load in the narrative on page 408, 1st and 2nd paragraphs.
    Yeah he states 18 grains of FFg Kings for the 158. In the narrative he says the Army 38 LC load was 14.4 grains FFFg with the 148 bullet and then says the 38 Special was 20.6 grains FFFg. It isn't clear to me if he means 38 Special with the 148 grain bullet or the 158 grain bullet. If the King's is close in ratio to the Black Powder, then I would ASSUME that the 18.0 grains of FFg King's for the 158 grain bullet would be equivalent to 18 grains of FFFg BP with that bullet. I'll have to see what Whelen says about that. It would make sense that the Semi Smokeless would be 1:1 equivalent to make it easier for the average person to use. At the end of the day, though, I still just fill the case up. Messing with "reduced" BP loads isn't really worth the effort.
    -Mike

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,855
    I believe Larry knows even more than I do. At least he's more eloquent. Everyone can learn from him!

    Hats off and bald heads showing to Larry!.
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check