Deathmatch for Bull Goose Looney at Raton

[SharpsShooter]

I have the opinion that a 6 power magnification is a noticeable advantage when obtaining a reliable sight picture on a 200 yard target. The fact that it can't resolve bullet holes is immaterial since the X-ring is the aiming point. Anybody who would shoot at 'holes' will just spread his group all over the target.

CM

MC,

I have to agree with that thought of a 6x being a notable advantage. However, the shooting at holes concept is is a common practice. Many benchrest shooters will fire a single shot into a blank piece of paper and then use that hole as a bullseye. The idea of aim small, miss small applies. I have many sub half inch groups shot with a 22-250 high wall and a 24x scope utilizing this method. Obviously a 6x is far less than the 24 I mentioned, but the 6x does give considerable assistance in producing that repeatable sight picture needed for such precise shooting.

SS

[Black Prince]

I can't believe yawl stooped so low as to make fun of my squirrel dog. I'm jiss hurt all to hell and gone. I'm shore glad yawl didn't make fun of my hat or my old tractor. That would have REALLY got my goat and I probably wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight!!!

You can tell it's August and it's hot outside. It makes us all a little short fused.

[waksupi]

Ya'll play nice, so we don't have to spank anyone.

[Bigjohn]

My solution for injured ego's; Tomato sauce squeeze bottles at 3 paces.
On the signal turn and SQUEEZE!

Now on the subject at hand; PP's, CB's & FLGC's have as many advantages as each other and also a number of disadvantages. Each will also have their followers and just an equal number will use whatever suits the situation.

IMHO; the shoot between BD & MLV is inconclusive; a) because of the limited number of rounds fired.

If they want to make a real match out of it; shoot 200 over 4 days or something like that number. Standing, prone, cross sticks, bench, 'Creedmore' and in the field.
IMO, I think the results would be too close to seperate.

IMO, there is a lot more finicky work involved in the preparation of Paper Patched Boolits than the Grease Grooved Boolits. I am not saying that is the sole reason for the demise of PP but we human beings are lazy by nature. Hence we will go the easier route.

That's just my two centaros worth,
John

[leftiye]

Or a Tabasco drinking contest!

[Southern Son]

Black Prince, your right, I can't beileve that someone would stoop to bagging a man's choice of dog breed (especially the wrong person's choice). I do believe that the type of person who would, is also the type of person who could only get any affection from a dog if they tied a steak around their neck. Down here, not spelling someones name is no biggy, but bagging his hat is gonna start a blue of monumental proportions. What type of dog is that? Looks like a Foxy or Jack Russell.

[Black Prince]

I THINK that is a Jack Russell. But I could be a little confused after reading parts of this thread where somebody goes off on a tangent that for the life of me, I don't know how he got there unless he just can't read. It is probably all my fault because I can't spell Kenny's last name even though I never mentioned his name. It was funny though, and once he stepped in it up to his eye brows, he just kept on digging in deeper. You'd think a fella in that situation would know when to quit digging, but somehow, he doesn't. But it was entertaining. I got a good laugh out of it and I suspect most everyone else did too.

Let’s move on. Fall is coming soon and we’ll all be getting ready for hunting season, so let this just be water under the bridge. Life is too short to do anything else. Well, not really. I’m going back to the lake and go fishing again.

[Bullshop]

Hay lets see if we can get this burnin again with a back to the point question.
So nobody aint proved nothin bout whats better grease or paper. Them well known fellas flopped on that one. So their both good shots and know how to make powder burn but they aint prooved nothin cept that we can get plumb goofy bout this stuf.
So here ya go, if ya shoot PP what is better ta shoot patched at bore diameter or at groove diameter. Me I already know the truth cuz I am da best at this stuff and if I werent so modest would tell ya all bout it. I just really want ta learn more a them polite ways ta jewg at onenother.
Blessings from the Bull Shop

[Black Prince]

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP THIS GOING, HOW ABOUT IS THIS A LEGAL CROSS STICK??



Some of you may recall last year when I said that I gave a Sharps rifle to a fella with 4 children who was a welder and could not afford a rifle. This is the man. That's me sitting right above him watching as the judges decide if they are going to allow those cross sticks. I am happy to report that they did. Course, this ole boy is 6'5" and weighs in at 260 and there is not an once of fat on him because he throws around steel all day as a welder, so the judges may have taken that into consideration. Notice his COPT (Church of the Painful Truth shirt.)

[Black Prince]

Here is Blacksmith as we call him, shooting the Sharps I gave him. This is his first formal match, although this photo was taken the day before the match at the open sight in session.

[Black Prince]

Early arrivals for the 9 th Annual COPT Shootout

[Black Prince]

Left handed, read headed, female shooters are even welcome at COPT matches.


This 16 year old shooter is participating in his first match using his uncle's borrowed Browning Highwall Traditional Hunter rifle. THIS is the kind of shooters we at COPT try to get interested in our sport and the kind of shooters we invite to our matches. His expression says it all. I believe we have him hooked. Notice Dogwoods blooming in the background. It's a great time of year for a SHOOTOUT!!!

[Bullshop]

Iduno, does it make weight? Looks like one a dem leavarite rests. Its so dang heavy when ya change stations ya leavarite where it is. Lets face it a big hammer is one a them tools that there are endless uses for. Ya know what they say 3 is a charm but 4 gets the big hammer.
Blessings from the Bull Shop

[Southern Son]

Isn't there a rule about how far into the ground your sticks can go? He might be alright though, if only one goes into the ground, they might let him go twice as deep.

As to the PP, I really want to try it, but from what I have read, you patch to the groove diameter for smokeless and to the bore for black powder. This means I will have to probably get two molds, cause I want to try it in my 458 Win Mag with smokeless and my 45/70 with black. I have seen some people patching GG boolits and I was going to try and find a way to swage down some boolits for the 458WM. I know a fella with a lathe and he is quite talented, so making a swaging die for my reloading press would not be too hard for him, but I will have to get the metal cause I don't want to bludge all his stock off him.

The mould I was thinking of using for this is my CBE 458550, it only drops a 525 Grain boolit about .4595" (out of 50%WW/50%Pb). To swage it down so it can be patched up to groove, I am thinking that it will have to come down nearly .009". Is that too much to do in a normal reloading press?

[Bullshop]

southern son
Two points I would like to make on your comments right there.
#1 I think you got it wrong there bro about whats right for black or smokless. I do a right fine job with bore diameter patched with smokless. The more important thingy there to contend with would be boolit hardness and the pressure that will be pushing them. Put more simply if you are using an alloy that is fairly hard and the pressure pushing them is too low to obturate them then you would want to start out at atleast groove diameter or slightly over, just as we do with hard grooved boolits.
If pressure is high enough to opturate the alloy being used then the patched diameter can be less than groove diameter or even less than bore diameter if the pressure/hardness relationship is adjusted to be compatible.
You can learn lots about shooting bore or sub bore diameter boolits by paying attention to the fellas shooting slip fit conicles in their muzzle loaders, and using some of the newer black powder subs that produce somewhat higher pressures than BP.
A know of a test done with a .458" groove barrel shooting .451" diameter jacketed bullets and using Hodgdons T-7 powder producing excellent accuracy.
One little trick I have learned about shooting smokless powder with fairly soft ( say BHN-6 to 7) bore diameter patched boolits is that you have to use a powder that is fast enough in burn rate to build pressure fast enough to obturate quickly enough to make an instant seal. If gas blows by the patch its a gonner. That means no slow smokless powders for bore diameter PP. Powders in burn rate up to about 4227 will work good. Powders slower than 4227, even something as close as 4198 or Rel#7 become iffy.
Holycow, its late, I gotta go to work. sorry bout runnin on there fella.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[405]

BS Sr.,
Well said! No way can I prove it but the indirect evidence like-- amount of leading, fouling and basic accuracy tends to support exactly what you posted.

For soft lead, paper patched bullet final diameter over black powder in single shot... I've settled on somewhere between bore and groove diameter with bullet seated out so paper patching engraves into rifling.

Black Prince,
Don't care what anyone says--- I like your tastes in wogs and wifles. You should've left the pic up of your Highwall! Here's one of my favorite lookers.

[Black Prince]

Dang it 405, you know I'm not supposed to post anything on a thread started by Idaho Shooter and you are going to get me into some REAL trouble.



We unknown shooters have these unknown highwalls made by unknown companies with names like Browning such as this one. The lever of course, is not a standard Browning "S" type simply because I like this shape better. I kept the Browning logo mark on it when I changed the configuration and it causes some people to have some dam strange looks on their faces when they examine the rifle.

[Black Prince]

Me on the line for record



Here is my squad on the firing line with me in recoil. That is Two Trees who posts here in the black shirt and hat whose standing in front of the line. The sorry rascal tries to take every advantage he can.



But this is an unknown group (Church of the Painful Truth) whose been putting on this shoot for the past nine years with shooters coming from all over the USA and Canada, so we don't really count as being REAL black powder cartridge shooters. We don't invite the likes of Mike Ventruino and Brent Danielson and that makes us illigitimate I guess.

[Gussy]

We unknown shooters have these unknown highwalls made by unknown companies with names like Browning such as this one. The lever of course, is not a standard Browning "S" type simply because I like this shape better. I kept the Browning logo mark on it when I changed the configuration and it causes some people to have some dam strange looks on their faces when they examine the rifle.[/QUOTE]

I sure would like to get a better look at that lever!! I have several of those unknown shooters and if I ain't watching my hold closely, they remove a chunk out of my knuckle. Specially the 45-90's.
Gus

[Black Prince]

Yes sir, I KNOW the feeling and THAT is why that lever on my rifalgun is the way it is. I have a digital camera and will go down to the Bat Cave and take a close up photo of that lever and post it here for you. Just give me a couple of hours.