Deathmatch for Bull Goose Looney at Raton

[Buckshot]

.................Gentlemen. Come on now A person's join date or their number of posts is immaterial, and the newest member is a valued asset to the board. Lest anyone think my bloated number of posts makes me anything special, it doesn't. What it DOES mean is that I used to work 12 hour shifts at night by myself. I was also not responsible for much and could have mailed the job in, but I had to show up as assigned in order to get my paycheck. So I spent a LOT of time on the board

So far as the competition goes I'm sure I'll find it very interesting. I sure hope we find out about the guns, their loads and everything else. However I doubt the shots fired will provide a valid statistical population to draw a conclusion from. If they DID compete I'll bet they set an arbitrary number, like 10 rounds at some distance and let it go at that. It will prove that one or the other happened to be better for those 10 rounds.

Competition is a GOOD thing! It causes people to excell. To stretch themselves and maybe do something they haven't done before. It also places a certain amount of mental stress on those competing, which is something additional to deal with besides 'How the wind's running'.

A TRUE winner, a REAL winner will be humble in their accomplishment, as they must realize those also competing did their best, and anyone striving to do their best is also worthy.

.................Buckshot

[Echo]

'Competition is a good thing' - too true. Competition gives us progress, better components, better equipment, better procedures, better everything. But. The competition is between individual and the course of fire, not between individuals. Marksmanship is similar to golf, bowling, track & field events, and other sports in that one can excell without 'beating' another competitor. Anyone who enters marksmanship competition to 'beat' someone else has a personal problem.
I've won state championships with scores I wasn't particularly proud of, and shot really good scores and won blamed little. I am more proud of my 2622 @ Perry than any championship I won, and 2622 is NOT my high score. It's all competition with oneself against the course of fire.
So. I agree with those who say this is all a publicity effort - either that, or some over-inflated egos at work. Not being familiar with the participants, I have no opinion. The whole thing seems silly...

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

there is "no joy in Mudville", Brent reported that MLV beat him, as Brent says "handily".
10-shots at 200 yds offhand.

I would have liked to see a good competitive PP shooter like Kenny Wasserburger take Mike on.
Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"! He was using the BACO?Steve Brooks Money Bullet cast at .446" and patched with onionskin (.0015") to take it to .451.

THAT is shooting, my friends.

Rich

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Black Prince,

since I came on board three months before you did, does that make me more expert than you? Or, better qualified to post an opinion? If you cannot be civil, can I suggest you not post on my threads?

thanks to all who made appropriate responses focused on the post, not bashing other people.

Rich

[montana_charlie]

Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"!

THAT is shooting, my friends.

Agreed.
But, just for the record, the group was fired with a scoped rifle...making it a little more a test of the ammunition, and a bit less a test of the shooter's physical abilities.


A word about Black Prince...
I can see where he may have presumed he was being belittled, marginalized, or made fun of when he read (in a post specifically addressed to himself), "Or at least until the next guy nobody knows shows up and starts to ..........".

If his reply showed him to be a little hot under the collar, that might be understandable. Unfortunately, it is unclear that it was actually Black Prince who was the 'next unknown guy' being referred to.

But, while BP may have relied on some sanguine sarcasm to display his distinct displeasure at a perceived possible put down...you'll notice that he did not resort to direct insults, or name-calling. That would have been the mark of one who cannot debate effectively, nor with civility.

Of course an author may ban any member from posting in threads that he starts...and he may do so for any reason deemed reasonable. But, there might be some value reconsidering the reasonableness of this most recent ban.

CM

[James C. Snodgrass]

I was gettin' to think the original title was goin' to be reality for a moment there. I do wander if there has been a scientific test between the GG vs PP and if the PP does come out on top is it worth the hassle? Just curios James

[Bullshop]

Ok then if it werent black prince that was slighted who was it, me? Gosh I'm speachless.
Ta think somebody noticed.
Well Sir the only reason nobody aint never heard of me is cuz I aint never done nothin.
Dont mean I dont no nothin about sumthin. Just means I have a differant master than them fellas have. A brother once told me show me where you spend most of your time and I will show you you first love. Well Sir I wish to serve only one master. Them fellas what is so well known for thier BP shootin may think they have mastered something but I see it the other way round. My Bible says you can serve only one master and I want it to be my lord Jesus.
Sure I went there and did that and saw what it takes to be popular, not neccessarily good. You can be good without being popular. Anyway I saw it and the price was too high for me, my soul. The bible says to love the lord with all ya got and he dont want to share the top spot with anyone or anything.
So maby I aint so popular but it dont mean I aint experianced and maby just maby if ya listen ta what not so popular folks say ya could still pick up somethin useful.
If it werent me in the first place dont tell me cuz then I will feel even smaller then when we started.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

Also, Brent (as big a horse's ass as he is) is not the one badmouthing the other one on BP website forums.

Black Prince you drunk or a doper?

If you cannot be civil, can I suggest you not post on my threads?

Not singling anybody out, but it would be nice if everyone played by the same rules. A pot calling a kettle black doesn't fly.

[Don McDowell]

there is "no joy in Mudville", Brent reported that MLV beat him, as Brent says "handily".
10-shots at 200 yds offhand.

I would have liked to see a good competitive PP shooter like Kenny Wasserburger take Mike on.
Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"! He was using the BACO?Steve Brooks Money Bullet cast at .446" and patched with onionskin (.0015") to take it to .451.

THAT is shooting, my friends.

Rich

I was really happy to hear about Kenny's fantastic international record setting group.
Its a neat experience to be on the firing line with shooters of his, Jimbo Terry, Rick Mortz's , Dennis Wiley and others's level. Even just to watch those guys is a pure joy.

One thing about that deal of Kenny's it should put somewhat of a kaabosh on this " folks that are winners only use Swiss " sillyness.

Are you still going to try and make it to the Sagebrush this year?

[leftiye]

I wouldn't ever really like to take Buckshot, or any of the other historians on in any way. But the chronology of the progression from patched round ball to patched conical bullet to grease grooved cast boolit pretty much occurred before smokeless powder was in existence, and black powder contined to be mostly what was used in target/match shooting pretty much until the end of the period (1900). As such, the preference for and progression to grease grooved boolits was evolved at low (black powder) velocity.

Present day powders, and velocities are showing a weakness on the part of the grease grooved boolit at the present higher velocities. Much effort, and special techniques are necessary to achieve good accuracy at high velocity with "naked" GG boolits. Conversely, paper patching seems to me to have been given a rebirth by the insulating and protective qualities of the paper jacket with modern smokeless powders, and velocities.

This not in any way to detract from the role of long disatnce BPCR shooting in defining the superiority of one or the other, but by definition these are also low velocity cartridge/rifle combinations.

[Southern Son]

10 shots at 200 yards OFFHAND is not going to prove if one type of boolit is better than any other. I think that Kenny Wassenarglkjasdgoihqweflokasdnf's (sorry but I could not be bothered looking up the right spelling) record is actually nothing short of amazing. Scope or not, to hold a group that tight using PP boolits is fantastic, I would have been happy with that accuracy out of my 22/250Imp with a 24X scope and using Berger Match grade J-Boolits.

I think that those of us seeking ideas on accuracy could learn a great deal more reading a thread on Kenny's load and rifle particulars (size of rifling to compare to the size of his patched boolit, that sort of stuff), than reading what loads the other two were using. Especially since the other shoot was done off hand.

[EDK]

Some of the higher end guys (skill or public recognition level!) can be a little abrasive. I spent some time at the Quigley shoot asking questions and listening to some of them. One gentleman's wife commented (after he had wandered off to do something) about he offended some people with his lack of diplomacy...BUT he paid his dues a long time ago and has a right to his opinions and the experience to back them up. Not a problem 'cause I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers myself!

There is a clique of recognized silhouette shooters and they unfortunately don't associate with the gong shooters and rank amateurs like myself at the Quigley shoot....which is their loss because I'd like to meet some of them, shake hands, and thank them for the magazine articles and/or products they've helped develop.

Right now it's too d--- hot to cast boolits and I ain't had a day off that it hasn't rained. Rick Kalynuik sent me a flat base plug for my paper patch mould and I want to crank out some boolits for the BIG 50 and do some loading. I may not be able to get the ultimate accuracy out of my paper patch boolits, but I bet I can get them to shoot as well as I can.

You boys have a good day. The little woman wants to go to the new buffet at the casino.



PS Idaho Sharpshooter is my little brother. It's a family tradition to offend the same people! LOL

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Scope...no big deal under these conditions. The scope was a 3/4" tube 6X from MVA. You cannot see the bullet holes, and just have to hold on tight and squeeze when the sight picture is the same.

By the way, not being able to spell someone's name, or being unwilling to take 30 seconds is a not too subtle way of degrading them. It shows that you consider them too unimportant to take 30 seconds of your valuable time to get anything right. It ranks right up there with me suggesting that a real man would have a real dog, not that rat-dog you are posing with. Actually, mine is more to the point, since that thing you have is a breed developed to catch and kill rats several hundred years ago. I'm thinking I will post me with my Sharps and the last Bison I killed with it. Now to figure out how to do that.

EdK is my easygoing brother, I'm the in your face one. We served together in Chu Lai for about six months back in 1969 and early 1970.

Idaho Sharpshooter

[DLCTEX]

My mother raised ten children and had a good rule: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything".

[Southern Son]

Idaho, I was the person who could not be arsed looking up Kenny WASSERBURGER's name. If I have offended you, I don't give a crap. If you are going to take a swipe at someone an accuse them of being disrespectful, you could at least take your shot a the right person. SOUTHERN SON is my sign on name, there is no picture of me with a dog, the nearest photo of anyone with a dog it 5 postings above mine, and he don't mention Kenny so I am stuffed if I know how you got us mixed up.

If you had read my post you would realise that I was heaping praise upon Kenny WASSERBURGER's accomplishment, and looking for information on his ammunition and his rifle.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

SS,

you're right...the title of prince of the Horse's asses is hereby transferred to you. You don't even have a dog!!

Rich

[montana_charlie]

I have the opinion that a 6 power magnification is a noticeable advantage when obtaining a reliable sight picture on a 200 yard target. The fact that it can't resolve bullet holes is immaterial since the X-ring is the aiming point. Anybody who would shoot at 'holes' will just spread his group all over the target.

Two members have posted to this thread who have small dogs in their avatars. Either is likely to take umbrage at Idaho Sharpshooter's recent derision of canine friends that he feels do not qualify as a 'real man's dog'.

Makin' fun of a man's wife, horse, or dog don't strike me as a strict adherence to the values contained in The Code Of The West...but some 'westerners' are transplants, anyway.

My vote would have Idaho Sharpshooter using his own dog in his avatar...instead of a 'rifle and roadkill'...so that we could see what a real man would choose. After all, even a gurley man could shoot a fenced in buffalo.

(arrived on Nui Ba Den just in time for the Easter Offensive of 1972)
CM

[leftiye]

Seems we've got a whole bunch of them south ends of the nothbounds on this thread! Are Y'all havin' a good time? Are Y'all feelin' okay? Dong Tam '68.

[SharpsShooter]

Some of the higher end guys (skill or public recognition level!) can be a little abrasive. I spent some time at the Quigley shoot asking questions and listening to some of them. One gentleman's wife commented (after he had wandered off to do something) about he offended some people with his lack of diplomacy...BUT he paid his dues a long time ago and has a right to his opinions and the experience to back them up. Not a problem 'cause I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers myself!

There is a clique of recognized silhouette shooters and they unfortunately don't associate with the gong shooters and rank amateurs like myself at the Quigley shoot....which is their loss because I'd like to meet some of them, shake hands, and thank them for the magazine articles and/or products they've helped develop.

EDK,

All due respect to ya, but paying ones dues doesn't relieve one of the duty of behavior resembling a gentleman. The abrasive, holier than thou, gloating, see what I can do and you can't attitude that pervades the character of some of the "high end" shooters is nothing short of blatant egoism that will turn many new and some older shooters away from a great sport. That is of course just the direction we need not go these days. Any man that spends too much time patting himself on the back only does so because there is no one else around because of his less than humble attitude.


SS

[SharpsShooter]

there is "no joy in Mudville", Brent reported that MLV beat him, as Brent says "handily".
10-shots at 200 yds offhand.

I would have liked to see a good competitive PP shooter like Kenny Wasserburger take Mike on.
Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"! He was using the BACO?Steve Brooks Money Bullet cast at .446" and patched with onionskin (.0015") to take it to .451.

THAT is shooting, my friends.

Rich

Rich

Fine shooting without a doubt. A bit OT, but how about 5 shots at 600yds into .583

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=773

Thats something that will beat any of us LOL

SS