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Thread: M1 Garand is up next for garand, questions on alloy and velocity

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    M1 Garand is up next for cast loads, questions on alloy and velocity

    So my first attempt at cast in the M1 was not terrible.
    I basically found the point of function.

    37.5 grains H4895 powder and either a RanchDog 165 grain flat nose or 314299 sized to .310 functioned 100%
    I don't have the ability to crony these loads just yet but and have not put any real target time into them. That's Next.
    Alloy is currently WW+2% water quenched.
    Questions
    1. what is approx. velocity range for these bullets and powder charge?
    2. Will COWW and 2% tin alloy do well or will a harder alloy be better?

    I plan on using another garand later that I know from testing functions down to 35 grains of H4895 but it has some mechanical issues that need to be addressed before its back on line. that will be a while down the road. So I have my next M1 in line for some fun.

    The ranch dog has done well by me in my 03a3 even pushing it as fast as 1800fps with COWW water dropped gas check and LLA. barrel is minty clean after. Thank the gods I have had zero problems with leading in any rifle so far.
    Last edited by mac1911; 07-26-2017 at 12:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The quenched WW+2% tin will be fine. Your velocity is probably about 2100 fps.

    I use 50-50 wheelweights and linotype, about 16 BHN, air cooled, not quenched, in my Garand.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master




    Scharfschuetze's Avatar
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    With the M1 Garand, the best loads are often a compromise between reliability and accuracy.

    My favorite bullets for the M1 Garand are the Lyman 311299 of 208 grains and the 311334 at 198 grains cast fairly hard [about 92-6-2] and air cooled. Gas checked, sized to .310" and lubed with NRA Alox formula they do everything that I need them to do to several hundred yards. Lake City cases using 36 grains of a non cannister 4895 powder and most any LR primer complete the formula. I've never noted any leading in the barrel or on the gas piston with the above load.

    My most accurate loads are right at 1,850 fps with either design bullet and they function my rifles reliably. Accuracy is between 2 and 3 MOA on average for 10 shot groups depending on which of my Garands that I shoot the load in.

    I like the heavier cast bullets in my Garands as the 1 in 10" twist really keeps my velocity-accuracy-reliability ratio between 1,800 and 1,900 fps. Slower and function is impaired while anything much fast and accuracy drops off, particularly at the longer ranges. With my self-imposed velocity restriction, the heavy bullets hold better at the longer ranges than lighter bullets given their better ballistic coefficients. At 1,850 fps, I've never found any need to water quench or heat treat the projectiles.

    The load also shoots very well in 1903 Springfields too.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 07-26-2017 at 04:20 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    I think they are more responsive to boolit size than hardness..

    I use 3-4-94 or 94-4-3 which ever you prefer... air cooled..my Garand also likes the 299 but prefers the NOE 3114299 with the .304 nose, sized to .310..
    it actually likes most any bullet with a .304 nose..strangely enough even the lee 155-2R over a load of H4895....I have to check my OP rod spring 'cause I can use loads as low as 29 grs of 4895 and have it function fine..NOE's 155fn works great too ...2" groups are an every day event..if I buckle down and the eyes are working I can get it down to 1 5/8"...

    Nice part about being able to use the shorter bullets in mine is that they don't get so beat up..and feed beautifully..

    As for the 299 in my o3's and a3's ..loaded over 29 grs of 4895 or better yet 4064 they are literally tack drivers...

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    well today was not very good. 5 shots under the black to get idea of a zero then 10 shots for score.... the barrel looks like I might have a leading problem? I have not really had what looks like lead so bad with just 20 shots total?
    o well have to start somewhere.


    the barrel after 20 shots

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    OK ...deep breath and;

    1. Try both .310 and .311 boolits WO changing anything else (you just want to see which groups better)..one may shoot a 20" group the other 16" ..but one will be better.

    2. Try a hard lube like NRA 50/50, lars Carnuba Red etc

    3. Make sure ALL the copper was cleaned out..

    4. Try dropping down to around 28-29 grs of H4895 and single feed to see if grouping improves ..then work your way up to see where it goes South..that way if it cruds out on you at say around 31 grs you will know that it ain't going to work period..or at least with that bullet...JUST 'CAUSE IT WORKRED IN ONE GUN DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL WORK IN AOTHER..

    Fun ain't it...

  7. #7
    Boolit Master




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    Without chronograph data it's hard to say, but my guess is that with your load you are getting near 2,000 fps. My Garands just won't shoot accurately past 1,900 fps and they are at their best at about 1,800 to 1,800 fps. I believe it's due to the 1 in 10" twist stressing the bullet, or what Larry Gibson terms as the RPM threshold. It's the same in my Krag's 1 in 10" barrel as well as my 1903 Springfields' 1 in 10" barrels. 1,800 to 1,900 is the magic velocity goal in probably all my US Military 30/06 calibre rifles.

    With the M1 Garand, the best loads are often a compromise between reliability and accuracy.

    Good advice above in Quicksylver's post... Drop your charge down a bit, all the way down to where your rifle will not operate semi-automatically, say 30 grains or so. Then build up until you get full function as well as the best accuracy to reliability of operation. You should be able to get 3 MOA given the good shape of your barrel as long as you handguards are fitted well, your gas cylinder is tight on the barrel's splines and the receiver legs and horse shoe are all in contact with the stock. Optimally, you should be able to get 2 MOA or close to it if everything is tight and the load right.

    I didn't see what type of lube you are using in your original post. I've used the old NRA 50/50 formula (available from RCBS or Lyman) with stirling results for over 40 years in the Ought Six. Lots of lubes out there that will work though.

    Nice bore on that Garand. Are you using one of the new bore scopes for smart phones?

    As an afterthought, make sure your front sight is tight on the gas cylinder assembly and see how much wobble there is between the barrel and cylinder splines. Those two interfaces can give you a wide dispersion if not tight or if worn loose. Match armorers all made a good buck tightening the M1's splines, handguards and sights up back in the day.

    From your photo, it also looks like your bullets are unstable given a few out of round holes in the target. Hopefully it's just my interpretation of the photo, but take a look at those holes for us and confirm one way or the other. That'll help the diagnosis.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 07-28-2017 at 12:04 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    ^^^ What he said about the sights..I used Lock Tite In my sight spline ..still solid after one year...

    "Everything's tight and the load right"....might be my next T-shirt...Thanks...

  9. #9
    Boolit Master




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    "Everything's tight and the load right"....might be my next T-shirt...Thanks...


    I just viewed the video again and I think what we are seeing is antimonial wash from your alloy. It should just come right out with a solvent soaked patch. It's pretty common when using later COWW as the Antimony percentage seems to have really gone up over time. Leading will take some effort to get out and the evidence will be easy to see on your brush and patches. Let us know.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 07-28-2017 at 12:16 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks guys.... this rifle is not my "best" shooter but like I said me and this rifle are capable of at least minute of black with HXP. Not my best fitting stock but the hand guards and gas cylinder are good.... one of the first thing I do with any M1 that finds its way to my safe is peen the splines. At some point I will be building a 308 garand and hope to run cast through that.
    I have a few op rods and gas cylinders to check and plan on putting the best ones on this rifle to optimize the gas system...
    My next step it to do as mentioned and start lower and work from there.
    I have a M1 I built up for JCG as issued matches with a new Criterion barrel. That shot 4 moa with the 314299s and 2500 lube and 37 grains of H4895...sometimes it won't cycle on 36?
    Thank you...Will be a few weeks before I do any more.

    The bore scope is a $14 *** I snagged on Amazon while buying Christmas stuff
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-my-1927-mosin

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Well I have been scrubbing and cleaning and scrubbing...brush , chore boy, kroil and this lead is in there good. I really don't have any specific "lead" removers.
    My brother dropped the last jar of mercury and have no idea what happened to what was left. I have it soaking in Gunzilla at the moment.
    Last edited by mac1911; 07-29-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master




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    Lead. A blessing for us shooters and marksmen, yet a headache sometimes too.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  13. #13
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    mac1911

    That load's velocity definitely is exceeding the RPM Threshold.

    I suggest using COWW + 2% tin as you mentioned. Use the 314299s if they enter the throat w/o seating the GC below the neck. AC'd bullets are fine but let them age at least 7 - 10 days before sizing, GCing or loading. If you WQ then wait 24 hour/preferably 48.

    If you don't have a lubrasizer then LLA is ok but I suggest a light coat first, let dry thoroughly then GC and size. Then use a Q-tip to apply another coat to the drive band/lube grooves and, again, let dry thoroughly before loading.

    Use a Dacron filler over the powder. Drop your load of 4895 to 28 gr and work up in 1 gr increments to 34 gr. You will find the best accuracy will be just at 100% reliable functioning with a velocity in the 1850 - 1950 fps range. Above 1950 fps accuracy will go south.
    Larry Gibson

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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    mac1911

    That load's velocity definitely is exceeding the RPM Threshold.

    I suggest using COWW + 2% tin as you mentioned. Use the 314299s if they enter the throat w/o seating the GC below the neck. AC'd bullets are fine but let them age at least 7 - 10 days before sizing, GCing or loading. If you WQ then wait 24 hour/preferably 48.

    If you don't have a lubrasizer then LLA is ok but I suggest a light coat first, let dry thoroughly then GC and size. Then use a Q-tip to apply another coat to the drive band/lube grooves and, again, let dry thoroughly before loading.

    Use a Dacron filler over the powder. Drop your load of 4895 to 28 gr and work up in 1 gr increments to 34 gr. You will find the best accuracy will be just at 100% reliable functioning with a velocity in the 1850 - 1950 fps range. Above 1950 fps accuracy will go south.
    Thank you sir... I finally got this barrel as clean as it ever will be again.
    This bore is pretty frosted I,I forgot just how frosted it was.
    My $14 bore scope is on the Fritz and I can't get a after shot at the moment. This rifle may be in for a new 308 barrel sooner than later. I need to cast more bullets and that's not happening until the hot weather comes to a end.
    I plan to give this rifle a detail strip and clean as it's been a while. I will check the gas cylinder and piston to see if they are good as I remember. Then I can start over and see if I can get a small charge to cycle.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I got the scope going again...I need a new usb adapter I think or the cable is going internally?
    Any how this is what this bore looks like completely clean.


  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    That should still shoot cast reasonably well, maybe pretty darn good as the rifling is still pretty sharp.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    That should still shoot cast reasonably well, maybe pretty darn good as the rifling is still pretty sharp.
    Yes I think so also... I have worse bores and cast has been a blessing to keep them shooting. My 91/30 is nasty and will not shoot a jacketed round much better than somewhere down range. with cast Its down to minute of black of the SR1. I really like the mosin with trailboss for 50 yard plinking. Even though that 200 grain slug is crawling down range it destroys all the invading 2 liter soda bottles well.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Finally back at it.
    Although this is my last attempt at M1 with cast loads, looking for full function and 10 ring of a SR 1 accuracy.
    314299 sized to .309" the nose of this bullet is a touch under . 300 fits snuggly in the muzzle. I hope the "nose" riding helps.
    I tried to load to 3.34" but it crams into the bore to much and extraction is hard.
    So I loaded it to the gas check to bottom of the neck and now the nose just every so slightly touches the lands.
    Rifle is a purposely built cmp JCG match rifle. New stock , criterion barrel and the most in spec parts I could muster at the time. gas system gauged at min a year ago. I did aggressive copper cleaning (which there was not much after 500 rounds) and ready to go.
    Now just need to find the time

    Last time out this rifle cycled 35 grains. ?
    We will see..

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    My Garand load:
    170gr. H&G #20 cast from 50/50 Lino/WW sized .309
    50/50 Lube
    32 gr of IMR4895 or IMR 4064
    1 gr. dacron filler
    100% function.
    3MOA accuracy.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Larry, are you using the XCB bullet in your Garand? What ranges?

    Mine seems to be as accurate as I can shoot with open sights. Just wondered what ranges you shoot with it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check