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Thread: Buck & Ball - Once again

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That's the Brenneke classic which is what I like and want to test. It is available as standard and higher velocity magnum but they didn't state velocity. Brenneke USA might have the specs. I haven't looked yet.

    Does the Rio box give velocity or did you chrono?

    I'd like to get some felt that dense and use it on some of my slugs to test. I'll have to check and see what I can find. I still like smoothbore and I really like Brenneke classic slugs.

    Thanks for that.

    Do you have a micrometer or vernier? If so would you mind measuring the Brenneke and posting the diameter?

    Longbow

    Okay, factory velocity... should have looked back first.
    Last edited by longbow; 11-12-2017 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Added note

  2. #42
    Boolit Man
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    My conundrum for deer season: Stick with my 8 pellet 00 load and have pretty decent performance from 0-40 yards, or try for a buck and ball to give great penetration (blood trail for close up, penetration at distance) and more pellets for improved odds assuming it patterns well.

    What I have debated loading up: a .575 roundball fits in the bottom of an RP12 wad perfectly. Then you can fit a good 9 pellets of .305-.310 buck on top and then have weight for another 8 pellets of #4 buck (or just make it a total of 12 pellets of the #0.5 buck) for a total of 1-7/8 ounces of home-cast buckshot in a 3" shell. 18 projectiles, all of which are good enough up close, half of which are good enough at 30-35 yards, and one of which if it aims well can take a deer out to 50-75 yards (probably on the short side of that due to accuracy of a round ball).

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy
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    No micrometer here ... sorry ...

    The Rio Brenneke is supposed to have a velocity of 1410 FPS (manufacturer velocity).

    Brenneke makes the Classic Magnum 12 GA 2' with 492 grs.
    And the velocity is 1510 FPS.

    http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-a...ssic-magnumtm/

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Yeah, there you go... same slug but faster. That'll make a difference in penetration for sure.

    Spugunr:

    Round ball that fits well can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards and possibly 60 to maybe 70 yards. My good round ball loads with any of 0.662". 0.678" and 0.735" RB's will stay under 4" at 50 yards. However, with buck and ball you do not have a close fit of ball to bore so I sure would be shooting at a deer size animal at any distance past maybe 25 or 30 yards. If that 0.575" ball isn't launched accurately you don't know where it will be by 50 yards and those smaller pellets are likely to wound the deer. Close up it should do okay but I wouldn't try for long shots unless you have tested and can count on that ball going where you want within decent hunting accuracy ~ kill zone every time at whatever distance that is which I'm betting is closer than 50 yards.

    For self defense the situation changes especially for two legged critters. If all he gets is a pellet or two then better than nothing but I have more sympathy for a deer than a bad guy. What's worse is they won't let you track him to ER then finish him.

    Tri-Ball loads tend to group the 3 balls pretty close but even then you have to pattern to make sure at least one( and hopefully more) is going into the kill zone every time. I have not tried those but there are a number of posts by those who have and some who have failed. Even with just 3 balls accuracy is not a given especially at longer ranges.

    Longbow

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Tri-Ball... here we go:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...uckshot-Scores!

    Tri-Ball patterning at 6" to 8" at 50 yards sounds like that is max. range to me... and maybe a bit beyond.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Just a note of caution: In looking through my notes, I found discussions of early attempts at shortening the crimp index of 3" Tri-Ball rounds using Longshot powder. The resulting tests showed the wads held together, patterns were tight yet pressures were well above SAMMI MAP standards.
    So if your payloads are in the same weight range and you intend to use Longshot - have the loads pressure tested!
    Last edited by RMc; 12-30-2017 at 03:53 PM.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy AllanD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djryan13 View Post
    What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.
    Actually theory says that the big ball with more mass relative to it's shape will lose speed due to aerodynamic drag more slowly

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy AllanD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    jdfoxinc I have a question sir. Assuming buck was loaded on top of the ball. As the load goes downrange, is not the buckshot going to slow faster than the ball? Is not then the ball going to be moving up through the buckshot? Possibly disrupting pattern?

    Would it be different for a muzzle loader than for a modern loaded cartridge?
    IE does the ball on the bottom seal the bore better resulting in better pattern?

    Not disputing, asking. Nicely
    That is my understanding that round balls are more Aerodynamically efficient the larger/heavier they are in any given material, and since all shot are spherical and of homogeneous material (lead) larger ones retain velocity further downrange.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master

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    faustus... you still around? it has been a while since I looked at this thread.

    I got side tracked again and while I got some shooting in last spring, we had a bad fire season this year so I stayed out of the bush and our local range was closed so no shooting. So I got some good fishing in and kinda forgot about slugs for a bit.

    Back to it now.

    I never did get hold of any Brenneke Classics.

    Have you checked them for accuracy from your smoothbore? Just curious. I am considering a rifled gun but really prefer the versatility of a smoothbore so not wanting to pry the money out of my wallet if a good slug will get acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards from smoothbore.

    It was recently pointed out to me that BPI is stocking AQ slugs again too. I bought some AQ's many years ago and had some pretty dazzling accuracy from them. Two big disadvantages... they are pricey for general shooting; they are soft lead "balls" more or less on a plastic wad. Very accurate and easy to load but I'd prefer hard alloy for bear defense... or armoured vehicle defense.

    Anyway, curious about the Brennekes.

    I'm heading to Edmonton for Thanksgiving so will try to get to Cabelas and the Outdoor Sportsman (IIRC) to check on factory Brenneke availability.

    Longbow

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    This is what I am getting with Rottweil "Brenneke style" slugs. It is a combination gun 7x65R & 20-76, scope is zeroed to the rifle barrel @ 100 m. Slug target was 35 and 55 meters trajectory check, reasonably good for deer at close range. Pretty much like a 45-70 in terms of power. Sort of turns a combination gun into a double rifle,which I like to have as an option.

    I used to cast 12 gauge slugs (Lee mold) but only to swap shot from trap shells for cheap IPSC practise slugs. Never got accuracy really.

    Attachment 229140

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Were those the Brenneke Classics? That's not bad but I'd expect better from Brenneke. The holes look a little oval so maybe the slugs are not quite stabilized. Is that barrel choked? Still as you say, plenty good for deer at those ranges.

    Got to Edmonton for Thanksgiving and had a great time with the kids but Outdoor Sportsman went out of business and Cabelas didn't have Brennekes!

    One day!

    Longbow

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    This is Rottweil Exact Magnum.
    15/16 oz.
    I'd love to try a mould of this kind of a design. And yes,there is 3/4 choke,or 1/2 at least,fixed.

    Sorry for going OT,this is an interesting discussion.

    Attachment 229149
    Last edited by Petander; 10-20-2018 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Choke

  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Unfortunately there are only two moulds I know of in existence, but both in 12 ga. Cap'n Morgan has one he made in Denmark and it is a very good clone of the Brenneke (in fact he made several different versions for testing) and I have one I made that produces a straight ribbed version that isn't quite as classy. I am sure others have done similar.

    I doubt there are or will be commercially available moulds since the ribbing makes it impossible for a standard two piece mould to release the ribbed slug. Cap'n Morgan's mould is a work of art and I have to suspect that it is based on die casting design. Mine is much more basic and is a simple straight ribbed push out design.

    I have always thought the Brenneke Classic was the pinnacle of smoothbore slug technology and that Wilhelm Brenneke was a very brilliant man.

    I have tried to clone the Brenneke design and the AQ design for some time now but with the limited tooling I have, and most home craftsman have, it is a challenge to say the least.

    And yes, I guess we are not talking buck and ball anymore though it is entirely possible to load buck and slug as well. But I am afraid I am not a fan when it comes to hunting or self defense. War is a different matter and I am sure the buck and ball came form a hatred of the enemy and a knowledge that with smoothbores and round ball loadings with excess windage that accuracy was poor at best so the soldiers added some buckshot to increase odds of inflicting injury. Personally I think it is a fine idea for the time and purpose but here we are talking about self defense against large animals and possibly people.

    When it comes to large animals that can do a person serious harm then the goal is not to inflict some minor injury if the main projectile misses as that may well be like tossing gas on a fire! Better to miss I think and hope the noise deters the animal or that you get a second shot.

    Best is to place a damaging or killing shot and stop the animal in its tracks than to wound it and create an adrenaline rush. I'd be more comfortable using a double or Tri-Ball load if "buckshot" was the chosen payload. An exception there might be if a 10 ga. or larger shotgun was used where something like 12 pellets of 000 buck or larger (0.36" RB's or larger) were the payload. That may leave a pretty large and crippling ouwie!

    When it comes to defense against people again, I wouldn't choose buck and ball because in most situations this defense is considered as a house gun and that means close range so hit or miss the main projectile is fully capable of penetrating the perp then at least one wall and more likely more so possibly endangering others in the house (or apartment) or even the neighbour's house. Smaller shot is the better choice there in my opinion.

    So there I am getting back on topic but pretty preachy I guess. Just one man's opinion.

    FWIW

    Longbow

    PS: I do like Brenneke Classic slugs!

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    It seems that Brenneke design still wins the smoothbore slug accuracy contest.

    I don't have a need for "buck and ball" either but it's interesting to see what can be done with modern components. I patterned Federal Prairie Storm with a 12 gauge short barrel cylinder bore "slug gun" and it gives a perfectly good 1/2 choke pattern @ 35 meters. Wads and fillers doing their job I guess,a choke effect built in the ammo.

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    faustus... you still around? it has been a while since I looked at this thread.

    I got side tracked again and while I got some shooting in last spring, we had a bad fire season this year so I stayed out of the bush and our local range was closed so no shooting. So I got some good fishing in and kinda forgot about slugs for a bit.

    Back to it now.

    I never did get hold of any Brenneke Classics.

    Have you checked them for accuracy from your smoothbore? Just curious. I am considering a rifled gun but really prefer the versatility of a smoothbore so not wanting to pry the money out of my wallet if a good slug will get acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards from smoothbore.

    It was recently pointed out to me that BPI is stocking AQ slugs again too. I bought some AQ's many years ago and had some pretty dazzling accuracy from them. Two big disadvantages... they are pricey for general shooting; they are soft lead "balls" more or less on a plastic wad. Very accurate and easy to load but I'd prefer hard alloy for bear defense... or armoured vehicle defense.

    Anyway, curious about the Brennekes.

    I'm heading to Edmonton for Thanksgiving so will try to get to Cabelas and the Outdoor Sportsman (IIRC) to check on factory Brenneke availability.

    Longbow
    Longbow, I am still around ... from time to time ....

    Well, this thread really went off topic .... partly my fault .... Ok, I will create another thread ... and I will answer your questions there .... lets try to keep this one on topic .... Buck & Ball!!!

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Good idea! I'll stay out of this thread in future,

    Sorry I took it off topic.

    Longbow

  17. #57
    Boolit Mold
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    I am a real novice at loading shotshells, although 50 years ago I was very involved with CIL ammo division R&D, and most of my work was on shotshells. At that time we were developing plastic wad columns.

    Recently I have been buying cheap target loads and using a 16mm ceramic tile drill bit (about $5.00) to drill out the crimp. It cuts just inside the edge of the crimp, so that the folded lip is still there to hold the wad in place, under a bit of compression.

    I then drop in the Lyman pellet-shaped slug and tap it below the lip of the case with a ball-peen hammer. The slug is nice and tight and these make for good plinking slugs for IPSC practice.

    The other thing I do is heat up sealing wax with the shot I dumped from the cases and pour this mix back into the case with a teaspoon. This hardens into a cylinder-shaped slug that shoots very well to about 35 yards. Again, good for practice.

    The advantage of these wax slugs is that there is no casting required.

    I live on a farm and sometime shoot the raccoons that come by to rip open our garbage or to peel the siding off the house. A was slug would be good for them. When the slug hits something, it releases all the pellets. So there is zero spread of the shot until it hits. The ultimate in a tight pattern.

    This thread about buck and ball got me thinking. Suppose the buck and ball also had hot wax added to keep the package together in flight.

    I have a 1 oz Lee mold and have a Lee 690 and #4Buck mold on order. I will try these with and without the wax - and will report back.

  18. #58
    Boolit Bub
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    Ganderite, I've been doing the same thing with the wax, sans tile drill... I just cut the crimp off to make a clean straight end on the shell. If you want a touch more accuracy without spending much more money, make yourself a wooden dowel that just fits the inside of the shotcup. First I pull out the wad, aND use the dowel like a mandrel and put a layer of thin plastic tape around the wad to keep the petals from spreading, then I run a small pan-head sheet metal screw into the wad to retain the wax/birdshot "slug". This way, it flies like a brenneke attached wad slug, and I can stretch my range a bit more before it begins to tumble off course. I"m going to have to try the tile drill thing...I like the idea of some partial-crimp retention for the Lyman 525. Wonder what a little kiss from a roll crimper would do for consistency?

  19. #59
    Boolit Mold
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    Here are some pictures. You can see the remains of the folded over lip that retains the wad.







    Here are my Lyman slugs sitting target load cases:

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    Why not try working up a buck n ball load taking advantage of the larger powder/shot capacity of all brass 12g shells? I use 10g wads in them and they fit nice. And the wads are bigger and I bet everything would fit real nice. A slight roll crimp with a dab of Elmer’s on top of the overshot card would work to hold everything secure. The Remington SP10’s are a 2oz shotcup and they might work in cylinder bore guns. The wad squeezes down pretty well. I will grab a wad and take a pic of it next time I shoot one.
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

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