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Thread: Buck & Ball - Once again

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Buck & Ball - Once again

    Ok, so I am new to shotshell reloading .... but I did quite a bit of research on buck and ball loads over the winter ... ordered components ... did the calculations ... and loaded some shells. I haven't shot them yet ... but next week end will be the day ... and I will report back here with the results ... so stay tuned ...

    There are basically two types of buck & ball loads that I am experimenting with:

    1.) Loads that are inspired by Ajay (VdoMemorie)

    Here the link to the original post:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Buck-amp-Slugs

    But it seems the images are gone ... and these images were great to explain things. Luckily I created a PDF from that post ... here a link to a PDF that I did:
    http://kalypso.net/temp/Buck_and_Bal...ading_12ga.pdf

    Here a picture of what I have loaded so far:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    2.) Variation of the Dixies Tri-Ball load

    And the other load I am experimenting with is a variation of Dixies Tri-Ball load. Basically I am replacing 2 of the 3 .600 with some sort of smaller buckshot, and keeping the payload close to the original load.

    Here the original Tri-Ball recipe:
    (1) 12 ga 3" Cheddite, Fiocchi, or Federal Gol Metal hull
    (2) 28/29 grs of Alliant Blue Dot
    (3) Precision Relooding Orange Wad TUPRWW123
    (4) Three .600" hard cast round balls
    (5) Precision Reloading buffer
    (6) Thin overshot wad.
    (7) Roll crimp

    Here the link to the post:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...all-Revisited!

    And here a picture of the components that I am using:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Voila ... so much for now .... hopefully I can post some results after next week end ....
    Last edited by faustus; 07-24-2017 at 08:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrakenFan69 View Post
    Can you give me some more info on that shell on the right?

    Thanks,

    Kraken Fan #69
    KrakenFan69, that is a 3" shell with a 7/8 oz Lee Drive-key slug and 3 layers of #4 buckshot. They stack with 7 pellets in a row ... so that is 21 #4 buckshot pellets. It is a 1 7/8 oz payload ... and the load is inspired by Ajay. If you need more infos, have a look at the links above ....

    Hope this helps ....

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks for posting. Will need to try this someday. What is the main purpose of this load? Cool factor? Hunting? Painful defense?

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by djryan13 View Post
    Thanks for posting. Will need to try this someday. What is the main purpose of this load? Cool factor? Hunting? Painful defense?
    Well, these loads are inspired by campfire talk about bear attacks and wolf encounters ... stories about dangerous critters raiding camp at night ... and the desire for a "one load does it all" that you can take along on that one month canoe trip far far up north ....

    How useful are they? I don't know ... I let you decide.

    For me they are a fun project to learn about many aspects of shotshell reloading. You have to deal with one main projectile (slug or ball) and its accuracy ... and you have to deal with buckshot patterns ... and all of this in one load .... doesn't that sound like fun?

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Ok, so I got a chance to try my buck and ball loads today .... and I shot 3 loads at 30 yards and 50 yards. I was shooting an 870 with rifle sights and a fixed improved cylinder choke.

    Here the results .... 50 yards (50 meters):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And here at 30 yards ... 30 meters:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I was able to recover some wads ... the WAA12L cups of the Lee slug looked mostly good.

    However, the brush wad cup for the 690 round ball got totally ripped .... not sure what happened there ...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    ?????

    And one thing I realized ... the loads with #4 buckshot seemed more accurate than the ones with #1 buckshot ...

    #4 buckshot seems to provide a better and more even base for the slug/ball .....

    Voila ... that is it for now ....

    Thoughts anyone?
    Last edited by faustus; 07-29-2017 at 10:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Bub
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    What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    Here a picture of the Gualandi LB12 Light Brush Wad and how it looked after shooting.

    Basically, I cut the cup off the wad with a knife and used the cup in the 690 round ball load.
    It seems the 690 ball gets completely pushed into the cup ... and the cup then acts as a patch/wad to center the ball in the barrel.

    I checked the fit of the .690 ball with my barrel and the ball will roll right trough the barrel ... passes the improved cylinder choke and pops out the other end .... just by gravity ....

    I was really surprised by how these cups get torn up ..... ??

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by faustus; 07-30-2017 at 11:58 AM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by djryan13 View Post
    What about putting slug on bottom? Very "even base". Once it exits barrel, it will slow down faster than buck shot anyway. It would also look just as cool imo.
    Djryan, it is my understanding that buckshot will loose its velocity much quicker than a heavier projectile. I would assume that having the ball or slug underneath the buckshot will open up the buckshot pattern even more. The ball/slug would act like a wedge to the buckshot group. But that is my assumption only .... I havn't tried this yet.

    Basically I am trying to achieve decent accuracy with the slug/ball ... while keeping the buckshot pattern as tight as possible ...

    Has anybody any ideas how to improve performance? Meaning achieving better accuracy with the round ball ... and tightening the buckshot pattern?

    Here the components for the round ball load:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    1.) Fiocchi 2 3/4” 12ga (clear)
    2.) Fiocchi primer
    3.) Longshot Powder
    4.) X12X gas seal
    5.) .170 Nitro Card
    6.) 14 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck) / or 8 Pellets (#1 Buck)
    7.) .170 Nitro Card (plus an extra .125 card with #4 Buckshot)
    8.) Light Brush 12 Cup
    9.) 690 Round Ball
    10.) Fold crimp
    Last edited by faustus; 07-30-2017 at 12:02 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    That failed cup under the ball reminds me of my early round ball days with recovered shotcups having torn bottoms and failed gas seals. In that case, the cushion leg pushing on the shotcup tries to swage it around the ball as there is no support.

    Adding a nitro card wad or two and a small scoop of COW under the ball solved that. Harder to do in your case I think. Hmmm... I see you have a nitro card wad between buckshot and ball cup so not much more you could do there I don't think.

    I'm inclined to think a Tri-Ball or two ball load would be more effective than buck and ball.

    If you get a decent hit with a ball the critter is going to feel it. If the ball misses or poor hit and buckshot makes contact, I think that would make for an injured and upset critter that would be looking for the source of its discomfort.

    At least with a two ball or Tri-Ball load if a ball or two hits reasonably well the critter will know it. Both are supposed to hit quite close together at moderate ranges. At 30 yards I think large ball grouping and terminal performance would be better than buckshot and ball. My opinion only.

    Longbow

  10. #10
    Oops. Wrong Thread. Thanks for the info on the Buck and Ball loads.



    Kraken Fan #69
    Last edited by KrakenFan69; 08-11-2017 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Stupidity

  11. #11
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    Interesting but nowhere near as accurate or deadly as a brenneke slug.

    That's all we carry in our 870s when riding in bear country.

    http://www.brennekeusa.com/

  12. #12
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    "I'm inclined to think a Tri-Ball or two ball load would be more effective than buck and ball."

    Me too

  13. #13
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    "brenneke slug."

    Get the green ones
    Same slug as the Red special forces penetrator or whatever it is called, for less $$$$
    Higher antimony
    That or the Magnum Crush
    I like the green ones, they penetrate like crazy
    Now that Dixie is no longer making slugs, I agree, go Brenneke

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    "brenneke slug."

    Get the green ones
    Same slug as the Red special forces penetrator or whatever it is called, for less $$$$
    Higher antimony
    That or the Magnum Crush
    I like the green ones, they penetrate like crazy
    Now that Dixie is no longer making slugs, I agree, go Brenneke
    Dixie Slugs has recently resumed production of the -Dixie IXL-DGS* / 870 grains @ 1200 fps from a 20" bbl.

    *Dangerous Game Slug

    http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
    Last edited by RMc; 08-11-2017 at 11:42 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Ok, here is an update for the buck & ball load. This is what I tested yesterday.

    690 round ball with 21 pellets of #4 Buck

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Load Data:

    Hull: Cheddite 3”, clear hull, 12ga
    Primer: Cheddite 209
    Powder: Blue Dot
    Gas Seal: X12X
    Payload: 930 grains (2.1/8 oz), one 690 round ball and 21 pellets #4Buck
    Powder charge: 29 gr of Blue Dot (Lee Powder Dipper 2.5cc)


    Column:

    1. Powder
    2. X12X
    3. 21 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck)
    4. .125 Nitro Card
    5. .170 Nitro Card
    6. Light Brush 12 Cup
    7. 690 Round Ball
    8. Fold crimp

    Now I recovered 2 690 balls and which were fired into a sandbank. Both show absolutely no deformation. And that surprised me, .... because all other factory slugs that I normally shoot are deformed when I dig them up.

    And I recovered one of the "Light Brush 12 Cup" and this time the cup is not torn apart and it seems the cup did stay with the ball till it hit the sandbank ... that is where I recovered it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, I am wondering if my powder load does not give me enough velocity? And I have to say I don't have a chronograph available to me and in order to measure the velocity. Recoil felt normal or ok like shooting a 1oz slug.

    Any thoughts?

    With these components, how far can I go with the powder load? How many grains of BlueDot would you use?
    Last edited by faustus; 09-17-2017 at 09:27 AM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Years ago a writer for muzzle loader magazine wrote about B&B. His conclusion was the buckshot patterned better loader on top of the ball.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    jdfoxinc I have a question sir. Assuming buck was loaded on top of the ball. As the load goes downrange, is not the buckshot going to slow faster than the ball? Is not then the ball going to be moving up through the buckshot? Possibly disrupting pattern?

    Would it be different for a muzzle loader than for a modern loaded cartridge?
    IE does the ball on the bottom seal the bore better resulting in better pattern?

    Not disputing, asking. Nicely

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check