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Thread: Buck & Ball - Once again

  1. #61
    Boolit Buddy
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    It seems this thread has a tendency to wander off topic ..... oh well .... lets try to bring it back ...

    So far my Buck & Ball loads did not give me stellar accuracy ...
    This is what I got at 50 yards/meters ....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But I am trying to develop a load where the main projectile is pretty accurate and the buckshot pattern is ... lets say decent.

    So, in the spirit of experimentation ... I have loaded three new buck & ball loads. Actually they are not "buck & ball" loads but they are "Slug & Buck" loads. I cut apart some commercial shells and in order to recover the slugs and components ... and to reuse them in my slug & buck loads ... and just as an experiment. I am basing this experiment on slugs that gave me good or decent accuracy out of my 870 Police ....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    From left to right:

    1.) Remington 12ga 7/8oz slug with 21 pellets of #4 buck
    2.) Federal TruBall 1oz slug (with most of the wad base cut off) and with 8 pellets of #1 buck
    3.) Sellier & Bellot 1oz slug with 8 pellets of #1 buck

    Now, I will probably not be able to shoot those till the spring ... but once I shoot them I will report back here with how they performed ...

    I have a feeling this will be a loooooong winter ..... ohhh well ....

    Last edited by faustus; 11-25-2018 at 11:08 AM.

  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Any idea of velocity? Just curious. That payload must be running about 2 ozs.?

    What are you using for load data?

    Does that S&B slug have an attached wad or is that just a cushion leg under it? Just curious. I haven't tried S&B slugs.

    What's wrong with shooting in winter? Actually I like to slug shoot when there is 3' to 4' of snow because when it melts I get to look for slugs! Our range is very sandy so after the snow slows the slugs (low angle so lots of travel through the snow) they are virtually undamaged. It would be nicer to pick them up after shooting and make notes but I'll take what I can get!

    Look I didn't stray off topic! I'm trying to be a good boy this time.

    Longbow

  3. #63
    Boolit Buddy
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    Longbow, all three have a payload of 1 7/8 oz, and I used Longshot as a powder.

    I realized that Longshot takes up less hull space than BlueDot, ... and for these buck & ball loads you need hull space. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any Longshot load data for loads heavier than 1 7/8 oz ...

    I looked up a couple of birdshot reference loads for Fiocchi, Cheddite and Federal hulls, and for a 1 7/8oz payload they all use 26 to 27 grains of Longshot.

    And I loaded 23 grains of Longshot to be on the save side.

    The velocity of those reference loads is just above 1100 FPS.

    So, I would assume that my loads are a bit less .... maybe 1000 FPS?

    --------------

    With respect to the "Sellier & Bellot Sport Slug" it is a low recoil foster type slug with an attached wad/gas seal and which stays with the slug during flight .... I like it as a practice round ... accuracy is decent ... and my shoulder thanks me. And it is relatively inexpensive.

    https://www.rem870.com/2013/09/19/se...al-sport-slug/

    p.s.: My personal range is snowed in ... I would have to go shooting on snow shoes ...
    Last edited by faustus; 11-25-2018 at 11:34 AM.

  4. #64
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That S&B slug looks very nice. Soft lead though I am guessing.

    I like the attached wad. Looks to me to be the "right" length so it doesn't get cocked when it crushes. I think Gualandi wads are too long... but they have used them for a long time seemingly with success so I guess its just me.

    It'll be interesting to see how accurate that slug is with the shot pushing it.

    And of course that is your goal ~ to get decent slug accuracy and good shot pattern.

    I guess I'm lucky, I can drive to the range, almost to the covered shooting area, even in heavy snow as the range road is ploughed.

    Longbow

  5. #65
    Greetings Faustus, I like the way you are loading them, looks very nice plus they are suppose to be very deadly up close. Keep it up.

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  6. #66
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Greetings Faustus, I like the way you are loading them, looks very nice plus they are suppose to be very deadly up close. Keep it up.
    ...
    Thank you Ajay for the encouragement ... much appreciated!

    But I wouldn't be here ... and where I am ... without you! I am merely following your foot tracks ...

    Thanks for blazing the trail, Ajay!!!!

  7. #67
    Greetings, You are very welcome my friend Faustus, feel free to write to me, I'll be there for you.
    You made me feel good, thank you.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
    Best regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  8. #68
    Boolit Mold
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    Ontario, canada
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    I tried my wax slugs that had a 200gr lead bullet in with the wax and shot.

    Did not work as a slug. The bullet collapsed the wax slug and all I got from the muzzle as a cloud of shot and a 200 gr bullet at 1050 fps.

    I might try again, placing the bullet at the bottom of the cup.

  9. #69
    Greetings Ganderite, can you please post some pictures of your set up so we too can visualize it.
    The pictures indeed play a very important role in our quest for perfection.
    Thank you.

    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  10. #70
    Boolit Mold
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    Pictures of ordinary wax slugs and wax slugs with a 45cal 200gr bullet added. I suspect the bullet set back down in the wad column on firing, and broke up the wax binder, so it just became a shot load, instead of a wax slug.


    They key to the process is cutting out the crimp, leaving the folded over lip, to hold the wad in place. I use a 16mm cermaic tile cutter. Costs about $2.00 on ebay.



    Here is a video I made of how I make the wax slugs.

    https://youtu.be/7x2WyC_yMqY
    Last edited by Ganderite; 12-03-2018 at 04:59 PM.

  11. #71
    Boolit Buddy
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    Update Spring 2019 - "Slug & Buck" loads

    Well, I finally got around to shooting my "Slug & Buck" loads. I had a great day at my range … and I am pretty satisfied with the results. Basically those loads confirmed my suspicion that Foster type slugs with some sort of centering mechanism will be more accurate in a buck& ball load.

    Distance was 50 yards. I am sharing the results here below.

    Next steps:

    1.) I got some very slight pressure signs on some of those Cheddite hulls. I think I will load a couple of those rounds up in Fiocchi hulls and adjust the powder charge till I get no more pressure signs. According to Ajay’s observations, Fiocchi hulls will show pressure signs earlier than other hulls from other manufacturers. And I have to say, ... so far my observations are in line with Ajay’s.

    2.) Those 50 yard groups do not give a good idea about how the buckshot will pattern at closer ranges. So, that is next on my list …. Patterning at closer ranges.

    3.) And third, now I just have to find a full bore Foster slug mold and figure out how I can center the projectile in the bore without taking up too much hull space. Any ideas anybody?












    Also, I recovered some of the components that I used in those loads …. And what I was able to recover looks good … no damage … Theoretically those gas seals could be reused ….




    Voila ... so much for now ....
    Last edited by faustus; 05-19-2019 at 02:15 PM.

  12. #72
    Great to see you doing good, I would cut a 3/4 inch 8 inch long paper strip and roll it in the hull on top of OP wad right before putting the buck shots and continue with your darker nitro card etc. That is just to keep the buck shots from spreading out too fast. Try a few and see.

    Best of luck.
    Regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    PS even if you like make a " U " shaped paper and then load your buck shots in stead of the under size slug as pictured. You will need 1 1/8 wide paper strip to close one end up to keep the buck contained. Who knows you just might have even a better idea ! !

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ahhhhhh .... Ajay ... now you are giving me ideas ... Ok, one more variation to test ...

  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I could probably be talked into sending you a few slugs from my full bore mould ~ it casts at 0.729" and is a TC design. Being a push out mould it is adjustable for length/weight. If you want some let me know what weight you want. Not sure if I can get down to an ounce but I know it will cast down to around 525 grs. and on up to 585 grs. or so. It flies pretty well from my gun.

    Something else you might try with the buckshot is the resin encapsulating idea. Apparently Winchester (?) or one of the big box outfits uses a resin "buffer" in some of their loads and the idea is that it fills in around the shot then solidifies but shatters into fine pieces at ignition. If you do a search you should find the threads on that. Just thinking it may hold your buckshot together better and given good "cushion" to avoid deformation giving better groups. There were guys trying things at home to reproduce the idea.

    Longbow

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ok, here an update .... the latest version .....

    I tested this load with Fiocchi hulls and primers .... and I did not get any pressure signs ....

    I chose #4 buckshot because it stacks so nicely in 12ga hulls ... and it provides a stable base for the slug ... and it gave me the best accuracy for the slugs ....

    Hull: Cheddite 3”, clear hull, 12ga
    Primer: Cheddite 209
    Powder: Longshot
    Gas Seal: X12X
    Powder charge: 23gr (Lee Powder Dipper 1.9)
    Buckshot: 14 pellets of #4 buck
    Slug: Sellier & Bellot 1oz Slug


    Column:

    1. Powder
    2. X12X
    3. .125 Nitro Card
    4. 14 Buckshot Pellets (#4 Buck)
    5. .125 Nitro Card
    6. Sellier & Bellot Slug with attached wad
    7. Roll crimp

    Here what the loaded round looks like .....



    Here the pattern/result at 20 meters/yards .... out of an 870 Police with IC choke ...



    And here the pattern/result at 30 meters/yards .... again 870 Police with IC choke ...



    Voila, now I just need to find a substitute for the Sellier & Bellot slug and which I can cast myself ....

    ... so far, I am happy .....
    Last edited by faustus; 10-14-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    Fiocchi or cheddite hulls and primers?

    BB

  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    Fiocchi or cheddite hulls and primers?

    BB
    Both!!!

    I tested that load with Fiocchi hulls and primers and to see if that combination would result in any pressure signs. According to Ajay, the Fiocchi hulls are one of the first to show pressure signs ....

    Then I switched to Cheddite hulls and primers .... and still no pressure signs .....
    And I am intending to use Cheddite hulls and primers for this load ...

    For those who are interested, here an interesting article related to primer substitution ....

    http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

    Hope this helps ....
    Faustus
    Last edited by faustus; 10-14-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  18. #78
    Boolit Bub
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    I still got me a stash of 12 Gauge, 1 ounce, Hollow Point Shotgun Slugs, from "The Slugmasters", Leavittsburg, Ohio.

    They state to load; PGS + 5/16" lubricated wad + 0.135" card.

    Alcan AL120 - 35 grains

    Winchester 450 LS - 30 grains

    Hodgdon Topmark - 29 grains

    Herco Unique - 28 grains

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check