Jacketed Velocity with Cast Bullets?

[Boomer Mikey]

OK guys,

Let's say we want to make the hardest, toughest cast boolits we can for use in maximum velocity loads for 22 caliber, thru 30 caliber rifle applications.

Is this range of calibers too wide for a single alloy? Too narrow?

What's the perfect alloy to reach jacketed bullet velocities and remain tough enough to stay together on a targets between 50 and 500 or more yards away?

How should we heat treat our bullets? Is watter dropping good enough? Is oven heating and quenching in ice water the best way?

What about bullet lubes? How do we know when to switch lubes and what to try?

Let's talk about using perfect bullets for our applications. Let's set aside twist rates, chamber, and barrel conditions; although these are never perfect, lets say they are perfect for this discussion. We also have the perfect bullet mold in a boolit design that meets our needs, you provide the optimal size and weight for our discussion.

Let's concentrate on boolit alloy and lubes to get the job done between 2000 and 2500 fps, 2500 and 2750 fps... 3000+ fps.

This is a huge undertaking but we're newbies and we don't want to spend 20 or more years finding out why we can't reach the jacketed velocities some of our experts do... show us how to get it done with a systematic approach if there is one.

Why can't we buy a book that answers these questions?

When will Glen's book be available?

Boomer

[jonk]

Good question! 2100 fps with gas check AND filler is about my max with water quenched wheel weights and feelix lube; never tried pure linotype.

[Bret4207]

Might as well ask for the winning Lotto numbers too.....

[shooter93]

There is/was a book titled jacketed bullet speeds with Cast Bullets that Colorado Custom used to publish....it's very interesting. Hard alloys....bullets grooved especially for paper patch and different lubes. He worked mostly with 30 cal and above but got matching velocities and accuracy as good as the test rifle shot with jacketed. 22's are going to be tough though. I don't know if it's still in print but you may find a copy.

[docone31]

Water quenched Wheel Weights, paper patched.
Should match velocity at the weight/speed.

[runfiverun]

mikey when you get up over 2200fps you gotta go into what works in your rifle.
it isn't the velocity it is the accuracy,at velocity.
there are several ways to get hard boolits,w'quench then h-treat,
alloys [and not just adding antimony] sometimes less is more.
but you gotta start with proper boolit fit to your rifles throat,and ability to carry enough
lube to get you down the bbl.

[HABCAN]

BMikey, funny coincidence: I was on the ranges today doing just that.

My aim was to simply substitute boolits vs. the expensive jacketed beauties (which are approaching $0.80/EACH here now in Kanuckistan, when and if your HS will allow their export to our wholesalers!) and load them on top of my standard powder loads. I was willing to accept a decrease in accuracy to a max. of 4MOA in the M1, .303 Brit and 7x57mm, thinking SHTF situation = NO bullets available anywhere. The 7x57 will shoot match bullets into 5/8", the M1 CAN do an inch, but the .303 #5 can't do better than 1-1/4" with match, off the bench at 100yds.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND, THIS IS A WORK-IN-PROGRESS.
I have not YET chronographed the lead load velocities, but j-words ran 2400/2700fps in those rifles with good accuracy at 500-600yds. on our 4MOA gongs, and even on our 800yd. steel 'buffalo' and our 1000m 'man'.

This past winter I have been hard at it casting boolits, sizing at various sizes, shooting them in the basement, etc. and have found that:
1. Sizing diameter is THE one most important criterion, and THROAT size is more important than bore size, so slug the REAR end of the barrel, and use the largest boolit that will chamber.
2. Water-dropped boolits from straight wheelweights, gas-checked, aged 30 days minimum, give NO leading in my rifles at these powder charge weights. LEE Liquid Alox tumble-lubing seems to be adequate lubrication, although some tests have had Lyman Alox first, then TL on top. However this MAY be unnecessary.
3. The LEE C312-185-R beagled, works, but not as well as the LEE CTL312-160-2R sized .309 OR .311 for the Garand and .314 for the Lee-Enfield.
4. Both the LEE 7mm boolit and the RCBS 7mm 168gr. cruise missile work just fine, with the edge going to the big RCBS slug beyond 200yds. in the winds we have here. (The other day I was holding 5' of right windage @ 500yds. for a 'breeze' from 3 o'clock!)

Now here's a strange thing. SO FAR, I have not been able to reduce the 25m group size with ANY of these loads below ~1-1/2" or 6MOA, BUT
WHEN I DON'T GOOF UP these lead-boolit full-power loads will reliably smack our gongs out to 600yds and they don't do too badly all the way out to 1000 if I have a good spotter! I think they need some downrange distance to stabilize?

Anyway, I thought I would post these VERY EARLY results of my progress so far, FYI. I'll be chronoing later this month and there is a LOT to do yet.

So in answer to your question, yes, it SEEMS possible to achieve what we both want.

[Murphy]

HABCAN,

I'll be keeping in touch with you about your experimentation going for higher velocity loads.

It has always interested me, and my only experience with cast boolits in rifles has been with the great old 30/30 Winchester.

I know and understand that many say not to worry so much about velocity as opposed to boolit placement. I agree with that statement and fully understand. On the other hand, why not push for the upper realm and see what we can learn? My thinking is the flatter the trajectory, the less margin of error. Why not put it to use in our favor?

Thanks,

Murphy

[HABCAN]

Murph, if I get too wrapped up in this and forget to post progress, just eMail me any questions, please.

I do NOT claim to have discovered anything, but I AM concerned about your next gubmint somehow restricting the shooting sports, and one way would be to nationalize or whatever bullet production "for the War Effort". Therefore, I wanted to come up with a homegrown substitute capable of minute-of-helmet, and so far it seems possible. I wouldn't like to be me being shot at by me with the loads so-far developed, and I'll be tweaking them over time.

And yes, anyone can cut velocities in half and get MOA accuracy with boolits, but that has no interest for me. 4MOA is good enuff! Most deer are taken under 200 yards, right? WTH are you shooting at, anyway? Save the j-words for shots requiring surgical precision. Riflemen are MADE and it takes practice, practice we can afford!

[Boomer Mikey]

BMikey, funny coincidence: I was on the ranges today doing just that...

So in answer to your question, yes, it SEEMS possible to achieve what you want.

I look forward to hearing more about your project as my personal interests in this regard are very similar; I'll bet most of us are interested in what works for you in the M1 and service rifles.

I've never been a high power participant and the concept of bullets becoming stable or "going to sleep" over distance is new to me.

HABCAN is doing the work to get it done for his needs; I appreciate you sharing your findings with us.

Thanks HABCAN,

Boomer

[Boomer Mikey]

I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... too much obturation causes excessive friction to the point where lubrication fails and leading begins. Harder - stronger bullets can be pushed faster with higher pressures; with adequate lubrication, pressure and velocity can be increased to the point where deformation occurs resulting in loss of accuracy (the alloy yield point.) In other words, the bullet changes shape or slumps over. Lubricants maintain a friction preventing film between the bullet and the barrel and gas checks reduce friction by reducing obturation of the bullets base, controlling lubricant loss and providing an efficient gas seal... all of which improve velocity potential.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. So, what else can we do to improve velocity potential?

1. Make stronger bullets
2. Make bullets with an alloy that has a lower coefficient of friction
3. Use better lubricants
4. Use powders that develop a lower pressure peak and longer peak duration

What else?

I'm not the expert here... these are my old fart, under-educated SWAG's.

Boomer

[Boomer Mikey]

Might as well ask for the winning Lotto numbers too.....

Now wait a minute Bret,

I have this book "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets" written by Veral Smith that says: " 3000 fps and higher velocities with excellent hunting accuracy is quite easy to obtain from standard sporting rifles."

Veral states that the requirements are:
1. A reasonably smooth barrel and a caliber capable of somewhat over the desired cast bullet velocity using jacketed bullets, preferably 270 or larger bore diameter.
2. Bullets properly fitted and at least 21 bhn hardness for 30 cal. at velocities to 3000 fps. Slightly harder bullets are required for the same velocity as caliber becomes smaller.
3. LBT Blue lube (as of this writing -1984-.) Veral also states that M&N lube will work in cooler weather just fine. (I have plenty of both lubes and use LBT Blue but there may be other lubes as-good-as or better nowadays.)
4. Of course, an LBT bullet design cut for the gun of interest.
5. Powder type suitable for the velocity with cast bullets.

I have another book "The Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide" written by Marshall Stanton that's a little more conservative in stating that reasonable velocity expectations using 21 bhn gas-checked bullets, which will give excellent accuracy are:
.22- .264 Calibers 2,600 fps
.270- .45 Calibers 2,800 fps

I believe that with a little help from our resident experts we can produce the winning numbers, or at least come to a consensus about what can be achieved and how to do it.


Boomer

[adam38654]

I'm in guys.

I will be trying to reach upto 2,500fps in a variety of 7.62x39 SKS's and AK's with chrome and non chromed bores from 11"(non chrome),16"(chromed),16"(non chromed),20or22"(non chromed).



up to 3,000fps in a multitude of .223's from Bushmasters to Rem700's and a Steyr Scout with an arrange of barrel lengths from 10.5",16",20",and 22" with twist rates from 1/9,1/8,to1/7 .

I think the chromed lined bores will be smoother and help. I will be trying all kinds of different powders and lubes to prevent leading an different sizing and gas checks.Gonna have to get lots of different moulds to see which bullet configurations can handle the highest velocity not to mention how picky different guns can be in the first place.

What are the best hard lubes for high velocities? I am considering TL over hard lube drive rings and will experiment with taping also.

[45 2.1]

Veral states that the requirements are:
1. A reasonably smooth barrel and a caliber capable of somewhat over the desired cast bullet velocity using jacketed bullets, preferably 270 or larger bore diameter.
2. Bullets properly fitted and at least 21 bhn hardness for 30 cal. at velocities to 3000 fps. Slightly harder bullets are required for the same velocity as caliber becomes smaller. Boolit shape and style enter in here also. Veral goes over this in his book.
3. LBT Blue lube (as of this writing -1984-.) Veral also states that M&N lube will work in cooler weather just fine. (I have plenty of both lubes and use LBT Blue but there may be other lubes as-good-as or better nowadays.) Several lubes now have this potential: LBT Blue, Beartooth, Lars Carnuba Red and some custom jobs from members here.
4. Of course, an LBT bullet design cut for the gun of interest.
This helps, but some standard commercial designs that fit do as well.
5. Powder type suitable for the velocity with cast bullets. Ahh, a big can of worms rears its head. A powder compatible with making small round groups, not just getting it to velocity is the answer here. Powders are not equal in this regard, nor is their use.

I have another book "The Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide" written by Marshall Stanton that's a little more conservative in stating that reasonable velocity expectations using 21 bhn gas-checked bullets Useing Marshalls methodology, alloy and lube..........., which will give excellent accuracy are:
.22- .264 Calibers 2,600 fps
.270- .45 Calibers 2,800 fps

I believe that with a little help from our resident experts we can produce the winning numbers, or at least come to a consensus about what can be achieved and how to do it.

Alloy is a big bugaboo here. Boolit fit is actually of great importance, moreso than you think. Just assuming it fits doesn't cut it. Magic marker that unlubed but sized boolit up and set it firmly up in the throat, then remove it and see just how little is engraved or touched and you will get an idea of what i'm saying. Most of the conventional stuff you see here will work, provided EVERYTHING else is correct (or doesn't get disregarded). If it isn't, you already know the dismal, poor results. Everything except methodology and alloy has been presented many times on this site by me and others. We left out some of those two factors and they do make a difference. Those two factors need to be taught on a one to one basis to get them correct for the way you reload.

[pdawg_shooter]

Any alloy over 15BHN will work fine....IF you paper patch the bullet.

[45 2.1]

I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. Really? Does it fit so well it doesn't have to obturate? Take a look at fixed ammunition versus breach seating for accuracy results. You will find that almost all of the breech seat guys win, and they usually cam the tapered boolit into the rifling origin. That is something you can't do with fixed ammunition until the cartridge is fired and the great possiblility of missalignment can occur. So, I would think that the perfect boolit would touch as much of the contact surfaces its adjacent to and leave no slop (or unfilled diameter to obturate in) . Then when it gets hit with pressure, it will obturate evenly, foreshorten some and not be out of line when it actually gets going down the bore, each and every time..........................


So, what else can we do to improve velocity potential?

1. Make stronger bullets That works, providing the above occurs!
2. Make bullets with an alloy that has a lower coefficient of friction Slicky lubes and this type of thing often produce poor accuracy. You need the correct amount of resistance to get the powder you use up to the proper ignition pressure so it burns uniformly. This is one of the things that prompted the use of jacketed bullets when smokeless powders came into use.
3. Use better lubricants Yes, those suitable for accuracy.
4. Use powders that develop a lower pressure peak and longer peak duration Not always what you think here. there is a powder for the cartridge and rifling that will produce excellent accuracy. You just have to find it. If it doesn't produce round groups, TRY ANOTHER.

What else? When you ask the proper question (which indicates you understand the preceding information). Otherwise keep asking questions about what you don't understand. This is just like school, one thing builds upon another. The basics are already in the archives and very few understood what was said then. And NO, this isn't BS. If you think it is, then your going to miss out.

BTW, very good results HABCAN, keep 'em coming

[jhalcott]

HMMM! This discussion COULD explain why one shooting session gets me a tiny group. Then ,the NEXT session has me pulling hair out.(not neccessarily my OWN!) A small change in reloading procedure shouldn't cause such a large change in results , should it?

[VTDW]

IMHO, bore prep, careful reloading practices and competent casting along with boolit fit are a must to achieve accuracy with velocity with cast boolits. It has only taken me 2 years to obtain the results below. Yep, I am pretty much a nubie.

My alloy is 50/50 WW/Lino and water dropped for 28Bnh. I think I may cut the Lino, add shot and see what a Lyman #2 alloy will do.

I get 2,400+ with a RD 265 gr boolit out of my .444S with several powders and great accuracy at 100 yd and beyond.

I am now up to 2,869 fps with Dutch's 210 gr (200 with my alloy) out of my .444T with wonderful accuracy using VV N-120 powder with superb accuracy out to 200 yd and beyond.

I am hitting a bit over 2,400fps with the RD 165 (170 with my alloy ) in my .308MX, with so-so accuracy (100 yd) but getting closer, and hit a tad over 2,800 fps for one shot only. Re-7. N-133 is giving excellent accuracy at just over 2,200 fps. For now I have to use the factory Hornady ammo for hunting and expect to have a good boolit/powder combo by hunting season.

All my bores are slugged and firelapped. Everything is gas checked and lubed with World Famous Felix Lube and sized .002over bore size. No need for obturation here. I seat my boolits .003-.005 off the lands. So far, I have had no bore leading at all and this is after several hundred rounds thru all of the above mentioned rifles. The Ranch Dog boolits are made specifically for Marlin rifle chambers and everyone I know is experiencing good to outstanding results with boolits dropped from his molds.

I have no clue how Dutch came up with such a great boolit but I think he had to do an additional Group Buy for this mold!!

Here's to ya Dutch

Dave

[Boomer Mikey]

One of the most interesting things about this forum is the variety of solutions and opinions presented by our resident experts; I believe that blindly accepting a single point of view is closing our mind to knowledge. I openly welcome opposing points of view to my way of thinking.

"I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation..." 45 2.1: "Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that."

Understanding fundamental cast bullet mechanics is essential for using them effectively.

Veral's trio of bullet mechanics are:
1. Bullet construction, hardness and design
2. Lubrication
3. Bore condition

I'm a newbie; when Veral Smith says that bullet hardness is used to control obturation I believe him... he wrote the book.

45 2.1 is our boolit designer, the bullet VTDW is raving about is one of his many designs; when he talks I listen... How do you look at bullet hardness for obturation control Bob?


Boomer

[BABore]

I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. Really? Does it fit so well it doesn't have to obturate? Take a look at fixed ammunition versus breach seating for accuracy results. You will find that almost all of the breech seat guys win, and they usually cam the tapered boolit into the rifling origin. That is something you can't do with fixed ammunition until the cartridge is fired and the great possiblility of missalignment can occur. So, I would think that the perfect boolit would touch as much of the contact surfaces its adjacent to and leave no slop (or unfilled diameter to obturate in) . Then when it gets hit with pressure, it will obturate evenly, foreshorten some and not be out of line when it actually gets going down the bore, each and every time..........................

That's what Bob was getting at in the paragraph following the one you just quoted.

If the bullet fits, precisely, then is doesn't need to obturate. You can drive it fast whether hard or soft. The farther you get away from that precise fit, the harder you need to go to keep it from obturating. Obturation can be both good and bad. It all depends on how the pressure is applied and when. A poor bullet fit, soft alloy, and fast pressure rise, will allow the bullet to obturate unevenly. This just about guarantees poor accuracy. Harder alloy is just a Bandaid fix. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. The faster (higher pressure) you try to make it go, the more likely it will start to give (obturate). Now your right back to where you started. You can do alot of dumb things to a precisely fit bullet and still make it shoot. You can make the same bullet be simply amazing when you do all the things right. Harder alloys can also be achieved through many different methods. I'm not talking about whether it's HT'd or not, but though different elements.