Spin-off From Tdoyka's Cape Buffalo/Bullet Question

[9.3X62AL]

Not wanting to have another poster's thread hijacked, I started this one to discuss what others felt/believed/observed about enhancing and promoting bullet toughness. I am only discussing the castings here, not the A-Frames & Partitions & TTSXs--as fine as they are.

For me, a harvester of varmints and thin-skinned game under 300# (usually A LOT under 300#), the Bruce B Soft Point has a lot going for it when driven between 1200 and 1800 FPS. I do hedge my bets here--I put these up in flatnose bullet designs that have something of a track record already as game harvesters--Lyman #311041, #375449 or its RCBS clone, Lee 45 rifle 405 grainer. I have shot one animal of fair size (a coyote) at 115 yards with the 30/30 and BBSPs, a bang-flop that traversed the carcass completely at an oblique angle from back of left ribcage entry, about 1/2 inch diameter, to exit at point of right shoulder with 1-1/2" stellate aspect. Muzzle velocity was 1800 FPS or thereabouts. I have 20 of these on hand, and they will join me on at least one day's deer hunt this Fall.

But what enhances "toughness"? Pure lead in patched roundballs kills in a manner out of proportion to its weight and ballistic coefficient, and I surmise that it does this because it generally does not shatter against tougher animated media as was seen in the cape buffalo examples with hardened alloy bullets. It does rivet over a bit, and essentially what I try to achieve with the BBSP is to drive a pure lead nose into and through an animal with a hardened shank to convey inertia to an expanding/riveting nose portion. Bruce did not say this per se, but I think a similar effect was what he had in mind for his bi-metal fusings.

[Moonie]

Tin enhances toughness, I've seen 50/50 lead/coww metal sweetened with a bit of tin hold together MUCH better than 50/50 by itself and not shatter like higher antimony alloys will.

[GhostHawk]

"Pure lead in patched roundballs kills in a manner out of proportion to its weight and ballistic coefficient, and I surmise that it does this because it generally does not shatter against tougher animated media as was seen in the cape buffalo examples with hardened alloy bullets."

Speed also plays a part here. Patched round balls over black powder seldom exceed 1300 fps.

Cast bullets loaded over smokeless powder often are pushed a thousand fps faster than that. If you keep the speed down you can often accomplish much the same with range scrap, or range scrap with a sweetener of 1% tin.

Or even range scrap or pure mixed 50/50 with COWW.

Speed can be seductive, it makes it seem easy. Less hold over, less drop at range. But sometimes less effective if the speed is too high and the alloy fractures.

I think it is a balancing act. If you have to go fast, I think you have to have the right alloy. Slower is easier in many respects. Just not as sexy as fast.

[Rufus Krile]

If you push a 500gr .459 bullet at 1400fps that was cast 25/1 lead/tin you won't be recovering any bullets. Long-ways through a moose or bison... you have to be careful what is standing behind the one you want to shoot.

[tdoyka]

"Pure lead in patched roundballs kills in a manner out of proportion to its weight and ballistic coefficient, and I surmise that it does this because it generally does not shatter against tougher animated media as was seen in the cape buffalo examples with hardened alloy bullets."

Speed also plays a part here. Patched round balls over black powder seldom exceed 1300 fps.

50 cal patched roundball goes around 1730-1870fps(80-90gr of ffg). i used to use 80gr of ffg with a 177gr rb in my 50 cal. the roundball was almost pure lead(99.5%)

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....allistics.html

[Digital Dan]

When men were steel and ships were wood there were some crafty old shooters that made 2 piece swagged lead bullets of different alloys and sometimes diameters to seal the bore and ride same. It's a bit labor intensive for day to day shooting but they work amazingly well, all things considered.

Meanwhile, back at the practical ranch, for hunting leave the hard cast theory behind for the most part. Lead and tin mostly do the trick. And yeah, patched round balls go a lot faster from my guns. 1,300 fps isn't even a plinking load.

Bullet below left the pipe at 1,600 fps, broke two forelegs and 5 ribs. Cut Bambi's heart in half along the way.



Same load has traveled full length on a quartering shot thru Porky the Grown Up Pig. It's pure lead.

[Hickory]

Meanwhile, back at the practical ranch, for hunting leave the hard cast theory behind for the most part. Lead and tin mostly do the trick.

This was drilled into my brain by an old mentor nearly 50 years ago and I've found out that he was right 46 years ago.

[centershot]

"Speed also plays a part here. Patched round balls over black powder seldom exceed 1300 fps."

Excuse Me??? Son, you'd best check your data!!

[Blackwater]

It's been a long time now for me, but way back when I was doing a good bit of bullet testing in wet lap, and with HP's, I found that higher tin content (4-6%) tended pretty consistently to help the bullet hold together on penetrating. Other than that, it's all about specific bullets, speeds and hardness. I never tried to make solids that were hard enough to not expand unduly, but I can't help but wonder if extra added tin might not keep some of the harder alloys from fragmenting on entry? It'd make a nice test series, with enough wet lap or other media to test them in. It takes a lot of wet lap to stop a big, fairly fast moving "solid" bullet! Even cast .44 mags. from a pistol can be rather hard to stop and recover! I doubt I'll do such a test, but it's an idea for anyone who wants to pick this up and run with it. I think it'd be interesting, at the very least, no matter what the results might be. Tin just seemed to me at the time to work as a kind of "glue" to hold bullets together while also at the same time, allowing them to expand very well. With the price of tin, this isn't a welcome thing to many, I know, but thankfully, it's not needed in 99.9% of our shooting. But that .1% might be pretty consequential if the bullet did NOT work, so .... we keep learning, and it never ends.

[MT Chambers]

I believe that some RBs hit 2000fps or close, I wonder what would happen if someone loaded a big 50 case full of BP and a soft 650 gr. bullet and shot a buff. with it? What would happen? Or has someone tried this before?

[GhostHawk]

Centershot I would love to see your source sir.

If I am wrong I apoligise profusely.
But somewhere in the last 64.5 years I got it in my head that most front stuffers seldom saw speeds over 1250-1300.

Now a BPCR with a big case I could see could stretch that. But I did not think most of those shot round balls.

So if you want to clear this up for me please do.

[sharpsguy]

I have run my 58 Hawken with a .570 round ball pushed by 120 grains of Goex 2f over my Oehler 35P a number of times, and velocity with that set up is 1850 fps. It is a pure hammer.

[rking22]

I have never bothered to chrno my load but the manual with a TC Hawke lists 175gr rb with 110 Gr of ffl at 2135 and 80 gr at 1838fps. H awken has a 26 inch barrel as I remember.

[rking22]

Relatine to the topic, a 50cal full soft rb on 90 gr of fffg from my 32 inch barrel will penetrate thru near shoulder and striking the far ball joint, form itself into just about a 50 cent piece. First non passthru I have ever had. Usually shot 70 gr fffg.
Also will add that a lee 255gr 375bullet on 8 gr unique is the only thing I have ever shot into 5ft of water that made it to the bottom and penetrated the bottom!

[Digital Dan]

I believe that some RBs hit 2000fps or close, I wonder what would happen if someone loaded a big 50 case full of BP and a soft 650 gr. bullet and shot a buff. with it? What would happen? Or has someone tried this before?

Yer funny.

[Digital Dan]

Centershot I would love to see your source sir.

If I am wrong I apoligise profusely.
But somewhere in the last 64.5 years I got it in my head that most front stuffers seldom saw speeds over 1250-1300.

Now a BPCR with a big case I could see could stretch that. But I did not think most of those shot round balls.

So if you want to clear this up for me please do.

Try the Lyman Blackpowder load manual. It's about as clear as it gets. 1800-2000+ fps is fairly common for top loads in ML roundball guns. That includes flintlock rifles. BP cartridge guns are a bit more sedate.

[Landy88]

Antimony saves you money, when it's just for funny.

But when you're shootin' skin, don't forget the tin.

[tdoyka]

Muzzle-Loaded Rifle Ballistics:
Black Powder Velocity Comparisons:
.45 Caliber Rifled Muzzleloader:
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Type and Weight Velocity
Goex FFFg 80 grains 137 grain Roundball 1861 fps.
Goex FFFg 90 grains 137 grain Roundball 1940 fps.
Goex FFg 80 grains 220 grain Conical Bullet 1500 fps.
.50 Caliber Rifled Muzzleloader:
Powder Grains Volume Bullet Type and Weight Velocity
Goex FFg 80 grains 188 grain Roundball 1730 fps.
Goex FFg 90 grains 188 grain Roundball 1870 fps.
Goex FFg 80 grains 370 grain Conical Bullet 1200 fps.

[Thundarstick]

I'm still learning in this CB game, but I've shot a truck load of deer with a .495 lead ball over 100gr of 3F and only had pass pass throughs on neck shots. Some could be measured in feet instead of yards with the ball recovered just under the skin on the off side almost turned inside out on itself. Don't know the speed, but it cracks just like a modern rifle!

[GhostHawk]

My bad, thank you gentlemen.