45 Colt model 92 Chambers compared to 44WCF

[bigted]

So having gotten the answer concerning the lose chamber in the current Miroku 92 chambered in 45 Colt I now have yet another question concerning the 44WCF chambered Model 92's.

First off what I have discovered concerning the huge chamber in the 45 Colt model 92 ... It has to do with the case having almost no taper. Even less then the 357 Mag. Therefore there the chamber being very large allows this almost completely straight case a chance to overcome the angle to chamber without jamming on the entrance ... Wouldn't be surprised if this is more the reason then the small rim for not chamberings this popular case in the model 1892.

The 73 does not suffer from this as the elevator brings the cases up flat to only require a simple push to chamber the round in the 73 chamber.

Now to my question concerning the 44 WCF chamber in the model 92. Are these Chambers tighter then the Colt round beings this is a necked round? I am contemplating chamberings my blown 92 for the 44 WCF round in hopes that I can have it chambered tight enough to share cases with a revolver ... Where I could not do so with the cases from the 92 rifle as if I size them to enter change with my revolvers they would crack and split almost everytime when firing them back in the huge chamber of the 92.

[bigted]

Well maybe nobody has a modern or original model 92 chambered in 44-40.

My Moruko 45 Colt suffered a devastating injury awhile back here in the form of a big walnut just under the rear sight dovetail and ruined my day for sure. Kinda puts my 73 purchase on hold for now as I want to get this 92 back in action again ... But NOT back to the 45 Colt (which I assumed was what I wanted before I discovered that huge chamber and now the reason for it.

Anyhow I am going to either reline my poor barrel in either 44 or 38 WCF chamber but want to proceed carefully with knowledge of these Chambers and their compatibility with revolvers of the same Chambers. Don't want to be in the same position as I was with the 45 Colt.

So if you shoot a 92 chambered in either the 38 or 44 WCF I'd like to hear from you concerning your chamber dimensions

[Chill Wills]

Well maybe nobody has a modern or original model 92 chambered in 44-40.
So if you shoot a 92 chambered in either the 38 or 44 WCF I'd like to hear from you concerning your chamber dimensions

Ted, I have an original Winchester 1892 rifle made in 1892. A low SN 44WCF rifle. Not that its year maters, it is just cool to have.
Anyway, short of doing a chamber cast and mapping out a print, I am not sure what to do to provide easily helpfully info.

Can you narrow in on what you are hoping to get?

[Chill Wills]

I guess a fired case would be a start.

[Outpost75]

I have cast chambers on both antique and modern .44-40 rifles by Marlin, Winchester, and El Tigre, as well as revolvers by Colt, S&W and Ruger.

The rifles ALL had chamber neck diameters of .447-.448" which permit safe release clearance of a .431"-.432" bullet, which is often necessary to get decent accuracy in oversized groove diameters in older guns, which I have seen as large as .435"!

Groove diameters of the .44-40 rifles I have measured were ALL .430" or LARGER!
REVOLVER barrel dimensions run the gamut, but the only dimensions which matter in a revolver are the chamber neck, for safe release clearance, and the cylinder throat or "ball seat" diameter. If bullets fit those, the gun will shoot. IGNORE the groove diameter of your revolver barrel. It doesn't matter. The great majority of .44-40 rifles and revolvers will give best results with a SOFT 6-8 BHN bullet of 1:50, 1:40 or 1:30 alloy in .430" diameter, regardless of whether shooting black or smokeless.

One fly in the ointment is the Colt revolver. It is very common in the New Service, and somewhat in SAAs to have large chambers mated to tight barrels of .425-.427 groove."

When people follow the utterly wrong and useless old mythology and folklore from old Lyman handbooks to size bullets to groove diameter, there is absolutely NO hope for normal accuracy. I agree with CharGar that we need to drive a wooden stake through the heart of this obsolete advice!

If you are lucky enough to find a S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative N-frame .44-40, it will shoot accurately out of the box, its .4285" cylinder throats and .429" barrel being a close enough match to be accurate with factory 200-grain JSP loads, or with handloads using the 215-grain lead FN .430" diameter from Matt's Bullets with up to 7.2 grains of Bullseye, if you would like a .44-40 +P load for your modern wheelgun. My Rugers, after rechambering to correct dimensions like this load too. See below:

The Ruger Vaquero .44-40 revolver uses a modern barrel of .44 Magnum bore and groove dimensions, but with traditionally-dimensioned tight chambers of .444 neck diameter with .425-.426" throats. To get normal accuracy it is necessary to RECHAMBER the cylinder, not only to enlarge the cylinder throats, but also to enlarge the chamber necks to obtain safe release clearance. You then use modern bullets of .430-0.431" diameter, which fit the modern-dimensioned barrel. John Taylor has the correctly dimensioned .44-40 Black Powder reamer which closely follows the dimensions of original Winchester 1873s and the Colt New Service, having a chamber neck of .447" and producing cylinder throats of .4300-.4305" so that you can use modern .44 bullets in your modern Ruger revolver.

After doing so it will indeed "shoot like a rifle" out to 100 yards or more!

Those who more into nostalgia than accuracy results may insist that .44-40s must use the traditional undersized .425-.427 bullets. That works only with nearly pure lead, dead-soft bullets and black powder. Trying to find the traditional small-diameter, compatible cylinder and barrel dimensions in the same gun, out of the box is chasing an elusive fantasy. Commercial hard-cast .427 bullets for the .44-40 are a recipe for frustration in most modern guns of this caliber. Good luck with that.

The Accurate 43-200QL bullet is a heeled design for the .44-40 which has a .428" shank to provide safe release clearance in tight-necked chambers. It also has a European style .448" diameter stop-ring nose, which is INTENDED TO BE SIZED to fit oversized or worn barrels which are common in old rifles. For those who want to know, this bullet was designed by committee when I was competing at a Cowboy shoot in Italy several years ago. Tom Ellis produced the original 43-200Q bullet with a small lubricant groove for use with smokeless powder and Lee Liquid Alox or LSStuff 45-45-10. One of Tom's most knowledgable US customers in SASS further improved the basic design, which we now VERY highly recommend as 43-200QL, has an ample lubricant groove suited for black powder use using SPG lube and Goex powder.

Cast in Roto-Metals 1:30 tin-lead alloy it has proven highly accurate in both rifles and revolvers having tight chambers combined with large barrel groove diameter. John Kort has tested this bullet personally in vintage rifles of large groove diameter.

It is also very accurate with appropriate smokeless loads, ideally 6 to 6.5 grains of Red Dot, 700X, Bullseye or Trail Boss in smokeless frame Colt SAAs, repro Henry and Winchester '73 clones, and up to 7.2 grains of Bullseye in the S&W 544, post-1930 Colt New Service or Ruger revolvers, and Winchester '92s, the El Tigre and Marlin 1894.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...43-200QL-D.png

I use RCBS .44-40 dies having the neck portion of the FL sizer honed out to .4435", so as not to over-work my Starline brass and a .428" diameter expander plug, which is a good fit with .430" bullets.

[Chill Wills]

That is a lot of great info.

[bigted]

Nice info and I am grateful for this. I guess what I'm looking for is the fired neck dimensions inside to compare to the same in a revolver cylinder.

Problem I ran into with the 45 Colt chamber in my Miroku Winchester is that chamber is so large that when sizing back for my Colt SAA ... When I fired them back in the Miroku the cases would split every time. I could neck size alone and keep them separate ... But now that I need to reline/replace the barrel, I do not desire this conundrum to follow. Rather I would like to chamber either in 38 or the 44 WCF so as to not need to keep separate cartridges for revolver and rifle ... Kinda ruins the attraction of a chamber for rifle AND revolver being the same for ammo to interchange between the two.

I never considered rechambering my revolver ( a Colt second gen infantry model) so as to be able to chamber in either or. Guess I coulda purchased a second cylinder to have rechambering but this never accured to me.

[bigted]

I guess a second question would be as follows;

Suppose I could reline this barrel back to the 45Colt round and chamber tighter so as to be able to use my revolver rounds in it with the interchangeability that I strive for. Question is ... Do you think this tight chamber would allow function and reliability with this straight walled case?

[Outpost75]

I lucked out that my S&W 544 cylinder has very nearly the same chamber dimensions as my circa 1993 Marlin 1894S .44-40. I had John Taylor rechamber my Ruger Vaquero cylinder and the reamer he used is close enough that once I had the neck honed on my RCBS sizer die, all the guns will use the same ammo. Neck sized cases from the Ideal tong tool will interchange between the Marlin, Ruger and S&W, but the Rossi chamber is a bit larger and neck sized brass from it will not fit into any of the other guns.

I had John set back and chamber a Marlin 1894S .44-40 barrel from Numrich Gun Parts to fit my old pre-war small action H&R .410, using the same reamer he used for rechambering my Ruger revolver cylinder. That gun interchanges neck-sized brass with the S&W 544, the rechambered Vaquero and my Marlin 1894S. It weighs only 4 pounds with 19-inch barrel.

Attachment 200190Attachment 200191

[bob208]

I have an original 92 in .44 never had any problems with cases swelling at the head. same thing for my original 73 in .44.

I was told they did not chamber in .45 because of feeding issues. plus they did not want to use a colt caliber in their rifles.

[Outpost75]

Before WW1 the folded (balloon) head cases did not have a relief cut ahead of the rim, as modern solid-head .45 Colt cases do, and the rim did not project far enough beyond the circumference of the case head to provide reliable extraction in rifles. This was aggravated by the fact that the .45 Colt case is cylindrical, rather than being tapered as are the .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40, so there were sound engineering reasons not to produce lever-action rifles for the .45 Colt until smokeless powder and solid head cases made it practical.