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Thread: what do you think?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master tdoyka's Avatar
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    what do you think?



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    how in the world did his boolits failed to penetrate?
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoyka View Post
    how in the world did his boolits failed to penetrate?
    "Unfortunately, the commercial cast bullets Ed used in the .475 did not do justice to his marksmanship skills. Two of the bullets blew up on the shoulder and another was badly damaged on the spine."

    That's how. The bullets were too hard and shattered.
    Larry Gibson

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Rainier's Avatar
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    Too hard of alloy? Check, good call Mr. Gibson
    Shot placement? Big question for me...
    Ed slammed a 420gr LBT .475 into the left shoulder and, when the bull spun 180 degrees, fired another into the right shoulder.
    The question on my part (because I've never hunted them) is; Are shoulder shots what you want when hunting Cape buffalo? Seems to me the easier route to the "boiler room" might be just behind the shoulder - don't know for sure never been there or done that. It does say he finally got a shot in just behind the shoulder but it doesn't say at what angle.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master Djones's Avatar
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    I would believe this story. I have seen bullets fragment on "wimpy" whitetail when my alloy was way to high in antimony. I would say whitetail are actually very tough and have a high will to live once wounded. A cape buffalo probably has 10x or more the power to keep on living after being wounded.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    I would recommend he soften the alloy and drop the speed. Don't forget Taylor's dictum.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    CB's that are too hard and pushed too fast are a bad combination when used for hunting, IMHO.

    Anecdote: My late grandfather, who I never met due to him passing before I was born, killed many a buffalo and hippo using a Martini-Henry with service ammunition. The evidence for this was a number of hippo tusks used as door stops in his old house as well as the number of buffalo skins used as area rugs. How I sometimes wish I got to know him. His old place in the Natal province was demolished years ago and the farm is now part of a national park.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master ammohead's Avatar
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    I will probably get beat up for this, but in my opinion hunting cape buffalo with a handgun is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Just sayin'. Could be he was using a 475 Turnbull, but I am guessing a Linebaugh. "Bring enough gun." I believe that some chap from Africa said that once talking about hunting Dagga Boys.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I do agree ammohead. Bring enough gun to that fight.
    However, JD Jones designed and built the .375JDJ so he could hunt dagga boys with a contender pistol. Which he did successfully.
    He chose the .375 caliber due to it being the minimum allowed caliber throughout much of Africa.
    I love mine in my contender pistol and want to work out a cast boolit load for it some day.
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  9. #9
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    ^^^^Hang a chicken outside ...3 hrs later you have a fully smoked cooked chicken
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  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    If you read Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges he said that he liked slow (ish) lead bullets on buffalo but indicated that he was careful with his shot placement as the actual shoulder was very tough, even to the point of slowing large, steel jacketed full patch bullets to such a degree that they didn't exit, and liked to place them just behind the shoulder.
    Unfortunately I've never been to Africa but have known many who have, both PH and sport hunters and they all have some really good stories about shooting buff.
    One guy had to shoot a large bull 13 times with a 375, all well placed shots in the power house, but it shouldn't happen!
    A PH I knew was doing control work and placed a 500 gr soft point just behind the shoulder of a quartering away old bull fully expecting it to drop. It spun round and dived into the elephant grass. Himself and his tracker were discussing how to proceed when out came the buff full tilt at them. The PH let him come close and was just about to give him a right and left in the face when the buff peeled off, ran about 10 yards more and died. The bullet had acted perfectly cutting off the top of the heart and breaking the offside shoulder before pulling up under the hide. It shouldn't have happened!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master elk hunter's Avatar
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    Cast bullets can work, a friend has taken any number of Cape Buffalo with a 475 revolver but, I don't know what bullet he used but, I'm sure it was cast. I used my 577 BPE double rifle with .590 diameter, 525 grain bullets cast from Linotype at 1800 FPS plusClick image for larger version. 

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ID:	200048 on a Cape Buffalo in 2015. The first shot was at 20 yards in the front of the chest. That bullet plowed a large channel in the heart. The bull went 30 yards and was down but not dead. I shot him twice more through the shoulders at 20 yards or so to finish him. The first bullet was recovered in the paunch, it weighed 517 grains and the nose was swaged a bit, the others were not found by the skinners. I should have offered them $5.00 per found bullet. I do know the second and third shots penetrated through the chest cavity and into the left shoulder area doing enough damage to finish him quickly.

    Attached is a picture of the recovered bullet with an as cast one and a 30 caliber one for size reference.
    Last edited by elk hunter; 07-20-2017 at 02:36 PM.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  12. #12
    Boolit Man
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    Too brittle of boollits is the consensus, but mightn't to little weight and SD been a contributing factor. His 420s in .475 were lighter, fatter, and shorter than the 480+ that was always the standard in the various .45 DG rounds.
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    No experience with the cape bufflers, and I want none. I verified this via a dicey encounter I had with a sub-compact C/B relative c. 1984 and its absorption of 3 slugs from my unit's 870 in order to quiet it enough to approach with a 4th slug directed from behind & under the horn boss toward the nose finally settling the matter. That "aim through the critter toward the far front shoulder" sorta worked--the steer did stop goring Toyotas and charging Freightliners. Cattle of all descriptions sometimes don't go along with the program. The involved animal got pissed about something while inside a bull-hauler trailer that just cleared the westbound scales at Banning along I-10. He busted out through the trailer sidewall (!) and fell onto the freeway at about 18-20 MPH, a thing that did nothing to improve his mood. Like Bear Claw from the film "Jeremiah Johnson"--"Skin THAT one, Pilgrim!"
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  14. #14
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    I've often wondered what these super hard bullets would do on a buff or something similar. I guess we know now? Hard has its place, to be sure, but John Taylor, as experienced a hunter of the heavy stuff as has ever lived, probably, opined that the soft lead bullet was a real wonder on game. Taken all in all, though, I think he just needed "more gun," like Robert Ruark advised a long time ago. There ARE limits to EVERYTHING, cast bullets included, and that goes for ALL the various alloys. One doesn't go after elephant with willow switches, and I guess, now we know not to go after cape buff with a pistol? Yeah, they CAN be taken, but with potentially dangerous game, one may well indeed be placing his life on the line to test the limits on the lower end with them. I've come to like living, and pain just turns me flat off. I think application of good judgment is part of the hunt, but I'm certainly willing to let others have their way. If nothing else, it's kind'a interesting.

  15. #15
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    One other thing I've thought of in relation to this instance, is that we seem sometimes to forget that velocity matters just as much, in some cases, as heavy bullets do. There's been a fad of sorts of late, to shoot heavy for caliber bullets, and they are lauded in many circles, and for some applications. But it's been my experience that on our usually smallish southern whitetails, a 200 gr. .44 bullet will kill them a bit quicker/deader than the 240+ bullets do.

    Take for instance, the example of shooting through moderate alloyed steel plates. The .220 Swift, even with fragmenting "varmint" bullets, will burn right through, while heavier and slower bullets will only dent it, at the very same energy levels. What's at work here? I think it's HOW that energy is used, and in the case of mild steel plate, velocity helps literally burn its way through, while a big, heavy bullet, at lower velocity but the same energy level, will only dent it.

    There's a reason certain calibers have become customary for the really big, heavy stuff that can bite back. Chief among these reasons is the simple will to live through the clash with these beasts. So though we've come to tend to latch onto a single idea, like "heavy bullets are better," if we ever let ourselves forget the OTHER parameters and criteria that come into play, we CAN be doing ourselves a disservice, and maybe, one that MIGHT cost us or maybe someone else their lives. That's not what hunting is supposed to be all about, to my way of thinking, at least. Hunting is about honor, but I fully accept those that like to "tread on the limits," and don't and won't discourage them at all, or disparage them. It's just not my way. That's all. Anyone willing to go after cape buff with a handgun is WAY beyond my aspirations. It's good nobody was apparently hurt in this, at least. And maybe it'll serve as a lesson for some of the rest of us? And I'm sure it'll be a challenge to some others yet to try this.

    For me, though, I'll always be content to "use enough gun," and this is coming from a guy who regards the .243/6mm's as "enough gun" for our smallish southern whitetails. I've also taken a couple with my .35 Whelen AI, though, and the terminal effect on those two was distinctly different than with smaller, faster calibers. I'm still learning about ballistic matters and "killing power." I suspect I always will be.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master elk hunter's Avatar
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    The African PH's I've met all shot heavy for caliber solids for following up wounded heavy game, some used them exclusively for every shot even on smaller stuff for the pot. The reason was they wanted penetration and broken bones on buffalo, hippo, and elephant. Most use some type of homogeneous wonder solids. For Lion and other thin skinned game they want the client to use a good controlled expansion soft point in a caliber appropriate for the size of the animal. Light fast expanding bullets can kill like lighting on smaller thin skinned game but I've had a light/fast for caliber 350 grain bonded core 45-70 bullet blow up when it hit a leg bone on elk. I met a guy that hunted elk with a 243 but I wouldn't try it. I try to match the caliber to the game and conditions.

    Just my $0.02 for what it's worth.
    Last edited by elk hunter; 07-22-2017 at 08:41 PM.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Interesting. Especially the remarks of use enough gun. I guess no one has read about hunters of the early 1900's using 7x57 to kill elephants, and Buffs. They thought they had enough gun. As noted shooting out the shoulder to incapacitate a dangerous animal is considered the route to go. Even the best laid plans go awry ay?
    I know of Inupiat Eskimo, that hunt polar bear with .243. I was incredulous, " how many times did you shoot the bear?" I asked. The reply with a smile "you kill with one shot or you don't go home"
    Thanks for sharing Mr Brakens hunt with us. I am sure he was frustrated, but glad it turned out as it did-no people injured.
    luvtn

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I have read a lot of books on hunting Africa. I've always wanted to hunt cape buffalo so I have sought out everything I could about them. It is generally written that the cape buffalo has the highest adrenalin capacity of all game animals. This means that if you fail to disable the circulatory system or outright kill the animal with the first shot you will have a fight on your hands. Additionally, cape buff have thick skins and large heavy bones. The muzzle energy of the 300gr 375JDJ would have been around 2100ft-lb. The muzzle energy for a more traditional buffalo round of a 400gr 416 Rigby in in the neighborhood of 4900 ft-lb.

    Any animal can be taken with a light round provided shot placement is correct. DMW Bell killed many hundreds of elephant with a 7mm mauser power level gun. To achieve that feat he dissected many elephants to understand their anatomy.

    In this case I question the PH. The hunter should have been advised that skeletal shots were not wise with the round he was using. The PH should have pointed the hunter to heart/lung shots. I also am curious why the PH allowed the hunter so many attempts without any anchoring shots from his heavy gun.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Brittle boolits are bad for any kind of game.

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