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Thread: Need some martini cadet help.

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Yes Iv'e been thinking of alox
    The ones I painted didn't give me grief , but the 50/50 bw/vas did.

    Apart from the gut turning smell of the stuff; alox has worked for me in the past before.
    I think it must not go anywhere and form a gooey gasket down the bore or something.

    My sample pack of CBE bullets were marginal at best with the loads that were around the others that shot good.
    May have been the lube but the only outside bearing in my groove is the thin drive band. that and the nose a bit small I think I would have trouble getting them to shoot in a non sized case.
    I would either have to hone /ream out the heel to suit my cases or make a stepped breach seating tool to align the bullet up in the starting blocks properly.
    Easy way is to get a set of dies and work the brass.
    The RCBS mould looks good to me if it casts big enough.
    Nei has one too but have no specs on that and haven't a reply from them yet.
    Accurate moulds have a couple that might just be great with a bit of tweeking.
    But they all would be pricey compared to a homegrown ozy one.
    Hmmm

  2. #22
    The rcbs mould I got 15 years ago drops bullets at .323-324 on the nose and .312-.313 on the shank. It is great apart from with Bertram brass, which is too thick (my chamber might be slightly short). I turn Starline 32-20 cases down, shorten them and resize to fit the chamber. These are 6 thou less wall thickness than Bertram brass so work well with the .312 shank.

    310 cadet is like oversize .22lr when it works well. Really easy to shoot.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Thnx for that Black beard.
    I got hold of some hawkesbury 310 cadet commercial cast bullets of a bloke but they turned out to be the 316 diameter size and not the healed variety.
    He got them for scrap lead price and I swapped him for some.
    Sized them down and paper patched some to try.
    The big game shoot is on this week-end and I tried 3 different powders in the loads that looked the best promise.
    Ap 50n 4.0 gns with a dacron filler and a 60 thou hard card wad on top.
    The starline re-mastered cases allow me to finger seat the base edge of the pp'd bullet into the mouth if I flare them with a 8mm mauser round's projectile for a fixed load. This also seals the chamber and stops blowby around the case neck.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Only had ten rounds of each load and this is the best I can do.
    2x 5 shot groups with clean bore.
    4x touching at 50 and the last a flyer.
    Shoots to the sights pretty well and apart from having difficulty seeing the 3" square sticky label at 100yrds at all I think they have done extremely well.
    I'll see if I can put the hurt on a couple of shooters in the rook and rabbit event and the pot rifle.
    Ha
    Looks like I'll have chase up the rcbs mould for an easy cast lube shoot fix.
    PPing just the end bit of these bullets aren't real fun and quick for me....but it does work and the barrel is shining up nicely.
    A couple of hundred more and this thing should be like a mirror.
    Last edited by barrabruce; 08-11-2017 at 07:21 AM.

  4. #24
    I am pretty sure that there is a Australian supplier with proper 310 cadet dies. They refused to export to UK but you would have more luck. Try google.
    If you have a 309/311 lube-sizer and can make a cup to go over the grooved section of a bullet then you can use the sizer to put a heel on to the neck section of a bullet. Fire them backwards. Work well with shortened 8mm bullets.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master BigEyeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Beard View Post
    I am pretty sure that there is a Australian supplier with proper 310 cadet dies. They refused to export to UK but you would have more luck. Try google.
    If you have a 309/311 lube-sizer and can make a cup to go over the grooved section of a bullet then you can use the sizer to put a heel on to the neck section of a bullet. Fire them backwards. Work well with shortened 8mm bullets.
    that would be Simplex , they manufacture and sell reloading dies and equipment from thier website . I have three sets of thier dies and find them excellent quality .
    My 310 dies are the Lee ones ,they work ok.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

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    Barrabruce,

    My experience is with a BSA that was reamed out to .32-20, but as the Cadet bore is larger than the .314" a .32-20 calls for, it's kind of a bastard hybrid.

    You're checking your bore dimensions, which is the most solid thing you can do. I wouldn't trust anyone's statement on what your bore SHOULD be. Mine's about .3185" as I recall, and the custom mold Veral Smith cut from my pound cast drops at .3205". The end result groups 2-3" at 100 yards and requires only a .30 caliber bore snake to clean.

    Since you're running the original chamber spec'd out for heeled bullets, I would be looking at Accurate Molds, and provided Tom with the inside diameter of a fired case, as well as your throat and bore dimensions. He could put tumble lube grooves on the nose section easily enough.
    WWJMBD?

    Buried in molds until covered with mold.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Yep thanks fellas.
    I chopped off the breach end of another 310 and use that for forming and sizing my cases now.
    I was using a tapered hole in a something or other that tapered the 32-20 shoulder down to fit the 310's chamber to fire form cases for a start.
    I just need a lathe and plenty of time and I'm sure I could make the chamber end a bush to fit into it for a neck sizer and use it as a seater too.
    So I don't need or even want dies.
    ( one of these days)
    Well I missed the rook and rabbit event by turning up late this morning.

    I did place in the first 20 in the pot rifle thou.
    (15 shooters)
    I was competing against 308's, 243's 22-250's and such like mostly with half a Hubble on them.
    When I moved the target from 100 mtres to 50 I thought I had no hope looking at the mess I made of shooting it.

    But the results were posted and I actually got 3rd.

    Not bad for a hundred year of rifle shooting dubious bullets wrapped in cheap paper.
    Haaa haa haa I hope that they are made aware of what out shot them just to rub it in.

    Imagine what could be done with something that works and shot by some-one who could really shoot.
    WOW
    Just gotta love it.
    Either that or they all must be really bad shots.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curator View Post
    One of the keys to getting the .32-20/310 cadet rifles to shot accurately without leading is using the correct diameter (.319-.322) heeled boolits cast of ACWW alloy at about BHN12-15. CBE in "Straila" makes the best .310 cadet moulds for the money. Slug your rifle first. Another tip is using the "wax gas-check" or a 1/8" dental wax wad under the boolit. Shooting smokeless powder means the breech pressure is not sufficient to obturate the boolit enough to seal powder gas blow by until the slug is 2 or 3 inches down the bore. This is the source of the "leading." The wax wad fixes this problem. Some years ago, Ross Siefried wrote an extensive article on getting the .310 Cadet and the .32-20 conversions to soot accurately. Copies of this article are probably out there in cyberland.

    MY go-to load for the .310 Cadet and the .32-20/310 cadet hybrid is 4.5 to 5.0 grains of unique, a 1/8 inch wax wad under the 120 grain CBR .310/322" heeled boolit lubed with Lee liquid Alox. This load shoots to the sights on the Cadet rifles out to 300 yards which is all the distance I have to shoot locally. Plenty of information out there on the web about doing this. Some of it is actually true!
    I hesitate to post this because I am a rank amateur and have no experience at all with a Martini Cadet. However, this may be of some use to those who load this round with smokeless powder: I have been researching and experimenting with reloading 22lr. As you know it was designed for black powder. When the time came for it to be loaded with smokeless powder the ammunition makers had to solve the problem of having the bullet obturate with the different burn characteristics of smokeless powder. So for that aspect, the Martini Cadet and 22 rim fire have the same dilemma. In his book "Ammunition Making" George Frost dedicates a chapter to the the history of developing 22lr match ammo for smokeless powder in the years from approximately 1935 to 1954. One of the key elements of loading this round that differed from the old black powder ammunition was the crimp. Frost describes the crimping method and the parameters for match grade 22lr. Previously black powder loads were only crimped to hold the bullet in the case. With 22lr the crimp is important enough for them to set the parameters at "Bullet Pull" minimum and maximum. The average being between 45 and 50 lbs. In my experience loading 22lr, a deep, tight crimp showed itself to be the key to velocity and consistency. The difference between deep tight crimp and very little crimp with the powder I use is dramatic. No crimp=misfires, click bangs, low velocity and poor accuracy. Tight Crimp = no click bang, no misfire and velocities high and consistent.
    With these things in mind I would think that the same logic would apply to the Martini Cadet cartridge. You may find that a tight deep crimp will solve the problems you describe. At least it's worth trying.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub Wheelwaits's Avatar
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    Does anyone sell the CBE molds in this country ?? No luck with the RCBS version. I have two Cadets a full military and one someone started "sporterizing". I'm using Bertram brass and I've tried #2 alloy -wheel weights and pure lead . Bores are good but "patterns "not groups.....

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    I'd do a Chamber cast to see what you have in each rifle.
    Before I'd go out and buy another bullet mold.

    They do ship to the states and your $ is so much more than ours as well as our postage is cheaper.

    Just cost me 1/2 the value of the rcbs mould to get one sent over here and it still will workout cheaper than buying it here from a store.

    CBE does have a good selection thou and I would buy one if it was going to fit my gun with out alteration from the start.
    I have a drawing of a mould I have drawn up for say accurate moulds to make for me but will wait and see if the rcbs mould does the goods or not.
    I'm pretty sure it will.
    Its a short version of a 308403 pope style bullet.
    Just finger set into fired brass.


    I got some bertrum brass but it is too short for some of the bullets I've used in my rifle.
    I have some starline brass 32-20 which is thin as, but can make it as long as I need too.
    Rp and Win 32-20 brass is harder to get where I am and heaps more expensive. And haven't played with any examples to tell what they are like.

    In fact I haven't seen any for a few years for sale when I'm out rummaging through gun shops.
    Last edited by barrabruce; 08-16-2017 at 06:38 AM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub Wheelwaits's Avatar
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    I was using the bullets as dropped from the RCBS mold.. Spray lubed with Hornady lube. Tried some #2 alloy.then straight wheel weights (95% lead , 5% antimony) and pure lead. Tried various powders...Shots were all over the place...I'll try a chamber cast if I can find my Cerrosafe..... Next step might be rebarreling. 357.... or a 22 of some sort 218 bee ???

  12. #32
    Boolit Bub Wheelwaits's Avatar
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    Can any of you "Down under" guys tell me what the "AJC" stamp on this one might mean ??? This is the "sporterized" one of mine..

    http://

  13. #33
    Boolit Master BigEyeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelwaits View Post
    Can any of you "Down under" guys tell me what the "AJC" stamp on this one might mean ??? This is the "sporterized" one of mine..

    http://
    No idea what AJC represents .You need to slug the bore and do a chamber cast to determine what projectile size you need . The cadet barrel dimensions were all over the paddock . I find a good consistant crimp is also beneficial . Im using bertram brass and 4.3gns of redot under a 125gn CBE heeled projectile.Im getting 1 1/2 " groups at 90 meters.The 310 is fun to shoot ,like a 22lr on steroids , personally I wouldnt rebarrel I until I was sure with out a doubt that no matter what you have tried the thing wont shoot . Some extra effort may pay off.

  14. #34
    Boolit Bub
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    This is only a guess, "Australian Junior Cadets", the reason I am saying that is because here in Australia the rifle is commonly known as a Martini Cadet..

  15. #35
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi
    Iím new here, but Iíve had an affection for the .310 Cadet since I bought my first one back in 2000, so I thought Iíd share my experiences with it. I havenít posted this to hijack your thread, barrabruce - I hope something in it might help you sort out your .310.

    If I come across a BSA Model 4b Cadet for sale here in the UK, I tend to go for it whatever its condition. I kind of feel that itís my duty to resurrect them and pass them on in reasonable condition for posterity! Some have bad bores and chambers whose rim recesses have been deepened to take .32-20 cases. For the really rough bores, I take the barrel off and get a .308 bronze brush, wrap it with 0000 grade steel wool, coat it with a mixture of oil and fine grade valve grinding paste and push it back and forth from the breech end. I give it about fifty strokes, then wrap the brush with kitchen roll coated with Solvol Autosol chrome cleaner and keep going. That generally gets a shiny bore with no tight or rough spots felt when passing a clean patch through.

    Bringing a .32-20 chamber back to a .045Ē deep Cadet rim recess involves welding and lathe work. I make a threaded collar that screws onto the barrel thread. Then turn a short aluminium plug that just enters the chamber and push the barrel onto the plug. Then skim my collar so that its OD is true with the chamber. Then, take a deep breath and MIG weld the rim recess to obliterate it. Back in the lathe, muzzle in the chuck and my breech collar running in a fixed steady to recut the chamber. A bit of milling with a slitting saw brings back the extractor slot.

    All the BSA Cadets Iíve seen have .321-ish groove diameter barrels and I use the RCBS heeled mould. I have a .321 lubrisizer die and have machined its plug to take the bullet nose ogive. I then run the bullets through nose-down to fill the grease groove. I use some UK NDFS dies that I bought before they went out of business, but also recently mortgaged the house to buy some RCBS custom dies in case the NDFS ones ever wear out. But as others have reported, once youíve fired some rounds, all you need do is run the cases through something like a .223 sizing die to punch the primers out and re-prime, powder charge and just seat the RCBS bullets into the case by hand. I use my dies to size, bell and seat because the round produced is more robust.

    I use 6 grains of Blue Dot to get around 1200fps, but 8.5 gives 1650fps if I want some .310 Stingers. 4.5 grains of Unique or 4 of Bullseye also work well for me.
    For bullet lead, Iíll buy a box of 500 240 grain commercially cast .44 Magnum bullets and magically turn them into 1000 120 grain Cadet bullets. They are about 16HBN and recovered bullets show rifling engraving on the heel, so Iím happy that they are obturating and they donít lead.

    My cases are .32-20 with the rims thinned on a lathe and shortened to 1.116Ē, which is a bit longer than a factory .310 case.
    Last edited by Otley; 08-21-2017 at 12:36 PM.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    Thnx Otley for your insight.
    I have tried in vain to get the other barrels I got to clean up somewhat at all.
    Keep going if you like.
    I'd like to hear what you limies do to make these shoot as I have heard great things.
    Around here they have mostly given up on it is all too much hassle if they aren't spoon fed something that fits their guns straight up sight unseen.
    Ha


    I did try to get the front sight off one and I think that they must have used and oxy and silver solder to put it on because I could not move it at all.
    I may have to cut it out and file out the other if I want to replace the one I got.

    I want to keep this one "as is" and not do anything to it.
    Well O.K. I lightened the trigger spring a polished the firing pin and channel and took a few burrs off here and there and bedded the forearm with some silicone. Sealed the butt stock and refitted it and cleaned up the crown.
    Even took apart and cleaned the rear sight to free it up some.

    It may take another month to get my mould in as I ordered it through Optics Planet in the Usa.
    Fingers crossed I will get it eventually.

  17. #37
    Boolit Mold
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    The front sight and stock lug are certainly brazed in to the barrel. I don't know if they had vacuum brazing furnaces in 1910 to prevent oxidation of the bore or I've heard that if you place a close fitting wooden dowel in the bore, you can then heat the barrel to red and the wood will char and prevent the bore oxidising, but they did it somehow.

    I think the .310 has got to be one of the most accurate ways to shoot cast bullets - even with bad bores they will outshoot any .44 or .357 carbine shooting cast bullets at 50 metres. (Is that contentious?). Bullets must be around .321" diameter though. I look at it as a four times scaled up .22LR using a similar heeled, outside lubricated bullet arrangement.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otley View Post

    I think the .310 has got to be one of the most accurate ways to shoot cast bullets - even with bad bores they will outshoot any .44 or .357 carbine shooting cast bullets at 50 metres. (Is that contentious?). Bullets must be around .321" diameter though. I look at it as a four times scaled up .22LR using a similar heeled, outside lubricated bullet arrangement.
    Probably is a bit contentious...but using factory issue chambers you are probably right.
    The gentle leade with a good fitting/sealing bullet at the case mouth has I think has a lot to do with it shooting well.

    Jury is out on the 357 mag...but I have seen some stonka groups.
    But it was not loaded for blat-o- matic functioning and in a purpose built rifle.
    Last edited by barrabruce; 08-22-2017 at 09:09 AM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master enfield's Avatar
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    I just had my 310 NSW cadet to the range using the new NOE 130 Gr .321 ( drops .3225 ) . at 50y with original barrel mounted sights it would shoot an honest 1". I had only made 7 cases from 32-20 to try ( basicley cut them off at the shoulder ) so I had to reload at the range with a scoop and some RED DOT and the bullets pushed so nicely into the fired & reprimed case. it was like it was meant to be.

    hey, watch where ya point that thing!

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    Good on you Enfield.
    Got a picture?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check