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Thread: The Three Keiths

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    The Three Keiths

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    Cast these this morning. 1-16 alloy.
    Actual weight from left to right 276 270 250 grains H&G NEI H&G
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 07-16-2017 at 02:34 PM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    270 grain is my favorite. perfect for the 44 IMHO.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Its a tad too long for my M69.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub LSCG's Avatar
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    good looking Boolits!
    Jesus gave me everything when he gave me salvation.
    CBOB0690

  5. #5
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Perfect example of why one shouldn't arbitrarily use Keith's classic load (22 gr of 2400) under a "Keith" bullet in a 44 magnum........

    Safe load under only one of those "Keith" bullets........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    white eagle's Avatar
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    always look for weight before type of boolit
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  7. #7
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    I see a large difference in bullet bearing surface.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  8. #8
    Boolit Master murf205's Avatar
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    Man, that 250 gr H&G boolit has a serious crimp groove, I love it! After having crimp groove issues with a 300 gr 45 Lee mold with darn near NO crimp groove, I don't take that part for granted as much any more. All 3 of these boolits look like they would shoot great. Keep us posted on the results.
    IT AINT what ya shoot--its how ya shoot it

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Lots of variations of the "Keith" bullet, some of them aren't even Keith bullets, just a SWC. I agree on that 270 gr. slug, its a dandy. Back in the 60's I started out shooting 21 gs of 2400 with a standard primer & I've never varied except for one time on one of my bears, I did use 22 grs because my 10 1/2" Ruger liked it best, the bear not so much.

    Dick

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



    Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
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    Those are not "true" Keith bullets, but look good nevertheless.
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, Varmint Hunter's Assn, ARTCA, American Legion, & the West Branch Gun Club.

    Caveat Emptor: Do not trust Cavery Grips from Clayton, NC. He will rip you off.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Show us some true Keith bullets. I dont know of any.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    The one on the left is an NOE-237 .41cal Signatured True Elmer Keith bullet with the (long/thick) equal length bearing-surface rings; it's loaded in a 41special case. Next to it is a 260gr Keith "variant" swc much like the ones pictured at the top of this thread; loaded in a 44special case. And the far right is an HSM 44mag 305gr Bear load that I was comparing things with that day..

    I haven't got a picture of the .41/237 or the .429/260 not-seated handy, but looking at the difference between the forward bands above the crimp beside each other, you kinda get the idea. The equal sized (& long) driving bands were a very important feature that Keith felt set his design apart. The bands and wether they are all equal to each other typically is the tell-tale give away determining between a true-keith or otherwise.

    The square lube groove is the other... it's hard to tell for 100% in the original pictures up at the top of the thread (they're a bit blurred on my screen so I apologize if I'm seeing wrong) but they almost look like rounded lube groove edges vs the squares that Keith stressed were vital to his true design. Those two points are what set the real Keith bullets apart from the imitation ones

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    Last edited by ranchman; 07-19-2017 at 03:43 PM. Reason: added about the lube grooves

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    There are really no true 44 cal. Elmer Keith 250 Keith bullet made today. I have two versions of the Hensley and Gibbs "Keith" bullet molds. One has thinner FB a wide lube groove and a thick BB. Still catalogued 503.
    In Keith's Sixgun book the page showing the bullets from various mold the 429421 that is show was cast in an early Lyman mold that Elmer Keith himself told me was original. I made many calls to Keith from the mid '70's to just shortly before he had the stroke that eventually did him in.
    Don't care whether anyone believes me or not.
    If anyone has that book and they tell me that any of the "Keith" bullets produced today looks like the same design is not seeing well. It doesn't take long especially with a magnifying glass and a set of calipers to know they don't. The relationship in the bands, lube groove, nose length and meplat is not the same as any made today.
    The bands in his bullet in the book Sixguns has a longer nose and more narrow bands.
    Oh well.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    And the real test is shooting them at the hundred yards and beyond.
    That ballisti cast #326 is a great bullet. Wish they were still in business, of like a four cavity mold

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Brian Pearce in Handloader did an article on real Keith bullets. He obtained one of the original early 429421 Lyman molds built for Keith and his friend in Alaska. If that is not a true Keith bullet, then none exist. He specked it out in detail in that article and also a later one Keith did for H and G.

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub
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    Accurate molds is making me one from those specs. 5 cavity, I am pumped!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Show a photo of the bullet Pearce speced out. I would be interested in one.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    There are really no true 44 cal. Elmer Keith 250 Keith bullet made today. I have two versions of the Hensley and Gibbs "Keith" bullet molds. One has thinner FB a wide lube groove and a thick BB. Still catalogued 503.
    In Keith's Sixgun book the page showing the bullets from various mold the 429421 that is show was cast in an early Lyman mold that Elmer Keith himself told me was original. I made many calls to Keith from the mid '70's to just shortly before he had the stroke that eventually did him in.
    Don't care whether anyone believes me or not.
    If anyone has that book and they tell me that any of the "Keith" bullets produced today looks like the same design is not seeing well. It doesn't take long especially with a magnifying glass and a set of calipers to know they don't. The relationship in the bands, lube groove, nose length and meplat is not the same as any made today.
    The bands in his bullet in the book Sixguns has a longer nose and more narrow bands.
    Oh well.
    I have that book and agree with what you are saying.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    44MAG#1, when accurate molds does yours, and adds it to the catalogue, please post it and the boolit # so I can find it. I am looking to get a 250-260gr keith, and also something in the 280-300 size, maybe something like the lyman 429650? I think that's right, it is a SWC W/GC, thanks-Travis
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  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    Accurate mold 43-250j . Pictures are in dec 2013 handloader magazine. Just got my mold this a.m. And it looks great. 5 cavity aluminum. Go to accurate website and he has detail specs in his catalog of the mold

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check