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Thread: `03 action soft or hard?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    The USMC preferred to bore out the "Hatcher Hole" in low number receivers to vent gases in the case of a ruptured case head. Sedgley and some other Gunmakers annealed and re-heat treated low number receivers before building custom sporters from them.
    Not all low number receivers were in fact brittle, but an unknown percentage were. There was no non destructive process for determining which were brittle and which were safe. Hatcher wrote of at least one incident where a low number receiver shattered when a low pressure guard cartridge was fired, though the same rifle had survived many full powered loads.

    Many receivers shattered if stuck a sharp blow with a mallet. There may be few if any dangerously brittle low number receivers left out there, because most of the brittle ones were discarded after armorers became suspicious during the Hatcher Hole boring process or found cracks on inspection during re-barreling. I expect any experienced machinist could tell by feel if a receiver was brittle under the carburized layer during the boring process. Metal that hard can seize a bit and shatter it.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
    wouldnt happen to be a former member under a different name would ya?
    Lefty o I think you are correct especially when he mentioned shooting hundreds of military bolt rifles chambered in 30-03 and 30-06��

  3. #23
    Sedgley CLAIMED to reheat treat the receivers. Good PR but not born out by any facts. A SHT action really cannot be changed into something it's not. Sedgley bought "condemmed" receivers as he was smart enough to know there was nothing wrong with them. Ever seen/heard of a blown up Sedgley ? Nope, in spite of them being made in hot chamberings like 270 WCF and opened up for 300 H&H and 375 H&H.
    As the link said, never happened after 1929 when it's reasonable to assume the soft head 1918 ammo was finally exhausted or trashed. A great many rebuilt SHT rifles issued to the USMC in WWII did not have the "Hatcher hole" as getting them afield was far more important than dealing with a problem that ceased to exist after 29'.

    Many M-1s slam fired in WWII and Korea due to stuck firing pins. Probably far more than 03' failures. Do we see anyone calling to relegate them to wall hangers ? Nope.

    Tempest in a teapot that provides something to talk about.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master lefty o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyWarrior View Post
    Sedgley CLAIMED to reheat treat the receivers. Good PR but not born out by any facts. A SHT action really cannot be changed into something it's not. Sedgley bought "condemmed" receivers as he was smart enough to know there was nothing wrong with them. Ever seen/heard of a blown up Sedgley ? Nope, in spite of them being made in hot chamberings like 270 WCF and opened up for 300 H&H and 375 H&H.
    As the link said, never happened after 1929 when it's reasonable to assume the soft head 1918 ammo was finally exhausted or trashed. A great many rebuilt SHT rifles issued to the USMC in WWII did not have the "Hatcher hole" as getting them afield was far more important than dealing with a problem that ceased to exist after 29'.

    Many M-1s slam fired in WWII and Korea due to stuck firing pins. Probably far more than 03' failures. Do we see anyone calling to relegate them to wall hangers ? Nope.

    Tempest in a teapot that provides something to talk about.
    m1's slamfired huh. go bark up another tree. the receiver bridge in an M1 prevents that. any M1's that slam fired would have failed inspection from any armorer worth a ****. your still not very humble.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Threads like this become more of a study in human nature, that anything about guns, bullet casting or reloading.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Threads like this become more of a study in human nature, that anything about guns, bullet casting or reloading.
    I agree, I received a PM from HappyWarrior consistent with our old friend, Mr Humble. Perhaps we should ignore him and as you say focus on the main topics of this forum.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master lefty o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMax View Post
    I agree, I received a PM from HappyWarrior consistent with our old friend, Mr Humble. Perhaps we should ignore him and as you say focus on the main topics of this forum.
    figured out who he was on his first post in the thread.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMax View Post
    I agree, I received a PM from HappyWarrior consistent with our old friend, Mr Humble. Perhaps we should ignore him and as you say focus on the main topics of this forum.
    Yes, ignoring such folks is a good course of action. In all matters we are bound to have differences of opinions and experiences. We should all give our input to the topic and move on, unless further detail and clarification would be helpful. Trying to prove that we are right and others are wrong is never helpful.

    I learned a long time ago, that sooner or later the truth will out. Bickering about it just demeans ourselves and others. I know it is tempting to call a fool a fool, and have done so on occasion myself, but it is never a good or helpful things to do.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #29
    An M-1 slamfire in wartime conditions is caused by a rifle that for whatever reason has the firing pin jammed forward. Rust, crud, frozen etc.. Not speaking of today's fear of slamfires caused by soft primers and the intertia of the firing pin.

    Becoming a reasonably qualified "expert" on any firearm is not difficult. It is done by a lot of reading, owning and or handling the gun in question and spending time with other folks who have spent decades studying/owning/shooting the firearm.

    One is not an expert because of the number of posts he accumulates on the internet, nor because he wants to control the dialogue of others nor because he engages in argumentum ad hominum. As anyone knows, it is far easier to smear someone than to come up with facts to refute their points.

    That is the great failing of all social media regardless of the subject. A discussion on a car blog about the best spark plug will also quickly degenerate into "gotcha" insults.

    Dollar to a dime, we all know where this will end and the heros can declare victory (for now)

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  10. #30
    Boolit Master lefty o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyWarrior View Post
    An M-1 slamfire in wartime conditions is caused by a rifle that for whatever reason has the firing pin jammed forward. Rust, crud, frozen etc.. Not speaking of today's fear of slamfires caused by soft primers and the intertia of the firing pin.

    Becoming a reasonably qualified "expert" on any firearm is not difficult. It is done by a lot of reading, owning and or handling the gun in question and spending time with other folks who have spent decades studying/owning/shooting the firearm.

    One is not an expert because of the number of posts he accumulates on the internet, nor because he wants to control the dialogue of others nor because he engages in argumentum ad hominum. As anyone knows, it is far easier to smear someone than to come up with facts to refute their points.

    That is the great failing of all social media regardless of the subject. A discussion on a car blog about the best spark plug will also quickly degenerate into "gotcha" insults.

    Dollar to a dime, we all know where this will end and the heros can declare victory (for now)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    you are wrong, they didnt slam fire. they did however fail to fire from being frozen. you make up facts as you see fit, the rest of us will ignore the bulldung. not too worried, youll be banned again before long, then we'll have peace until you try again under another name.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bcp View Post
    Lyman Alaskans had an eye relief long enough that they were sometimes placed with the scope rear in front of the bolt handle. This eliminated reshaping the bolt handle (and stock) for scope clearance. The one pictured is even a bit more forward to clear the receiver sight aperture.

    Bruce
    If you note the photo, the G&H mount is not all the way back on its base. It's not even 1/2 way back and the locking levers could not be engaged. G&H put it on there for the photo. The rifle probably has a trap door buttplate to store the receiver sight staff in just like my Sedgley 400 Whelen. Then the mount may be full engaged. The bolt on this Sedgley has been modified to clear the Alaskan. With the mount engaged the Ocular is over the bolt handle. I once owned a 30-06 Sedgley built in the English style with a short forend and Alaskan in a G&H mount. It was set up with the ocular in front of the bolt handle and was a stretch to use. Assume the owner had a long neck.

    Wildcat Cartridges by Zeglin that we published. Whole chapter by Mike Petrov on the 400 Whelen.

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    My 400 is the one on the left. Leupold Alaskan in Jaeger side mount w/Lyman 48 (staff in trap) with a filler.

    A very deluxe Sedgley with French, ebony and beautiful checkering.

    Kills well too...

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    Last edited by HappyWarrior; 07-15-2017 at 05:47 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
    you are wrong, they didnt slam fire. they did however fail to fire from being frozen. you make up facts as you see fit, the rest of us will ignore the bulldung. not too worried, youll be banned again before long, then we'll have peace until you try again under another name.
    Really and you were at the Bulge and Hürtgen Forest ? My father was, as a company commander, and I trust what he told me a great deal more than someone who was not there. You can ignore the truth if that suits you and, of course, the only way you can defeat my facts (temporarily) is by getting me banned.

    Doubt you've ever seen a dead trooper with a jammed up M-16 caused by another example of lowest bidder mindset. Where were you in 68' ?

    Being correct is the best reward.
    Last edited by HappyWarrior; 07-15-2017 at 05:51 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master lefty o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyWarrior View Post
    Really and you were at the Bulge and Hürtgen Forest ? My father was, as a company commander, and I trust what he told me a great deal more than some keyboard warrior. You can ignore the truth if that suits you and, of course, the only way you can defeat my facts is by whining and getting me banned. Always amusing how rough and tough keyboard warriors are AND how silent when FTF. Doubt you've ever seen a dead trooper with a jammed up M-16 caused by another example of lowest bidder mindset. See you around the paintball range......
    your a joke. go back and read what you wrote about you being a reasonably qualified expert in post 29, then you pull stuff like this. you dont know anything about me, you dont know my level of knowledge or experience in anything, yet you spout off like a child. thats why you got yourself banned last time, and why it will happen again. i dont have to say a word or complain to anyone, your going to do it to yourself. quite apparent you dont know a thing about the M1, or its sibling the M14! really casts doubt on your so called expertise in the 03!

  14. #34
    Sorry lefty, calling me names does nothing to advance your position. Unlike you, I am old enough to have qualified with both the M-1, M-1 Carbine and M-14. (and the M-16 and 1911) Expert in all five. If you don't believe an M-1 can slam fire from poor maintanence then I doubt you never went through small arms training with one or qualified while wearing a uniform.

    One of mine .... a National Match, scout scope a concession to old eyes.

    I'll let you have the last word as that is required.

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  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    how do the SHT recievers compare in safety to the drill rifles that were converted back into rifles that could shoot live ammo?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    A possible cause of slam fire with a Garand is if the rifle has been subjected to too many rounds that generated excessive gas port pressure. The bolt slamming hard against the rear of the receiver can distort the leg of the firing pin and jam the pin in the forwards position. Another reason that the 1930's era M1 Ball was considered unsuited for use in the Garand rifle and why long range match loads sometimes require a adjustable gas plug for safe use.

    In normal operation with suitable ammunition a well maintained Garand is extremely unlikely to slam fire.

    I've owned only one Garand but have fired several in various conditions. When restoring my Garand a gunsmith gave me a flier he had received detailing the known causes of slamfires in the Garand. It may still be here someplace or other.

    I have no reason to doubt that Sedgley and some others had LN 03 receivers re heat treated. Hatcher mentioned that as an option considered at the time with the decision being that it would be too expensive and might not cure the problem completely.

    The failures of LN receivers seem limited to certain years of production and certain months of those years. I'm sure that modern testing methods could weed out the bad receivers. Most defective receivers were probably weeded out in the normal order of events as worn barrels were replaced and Hatcher Holes drilled.

  17. #37
    It has been an interesting thread - at times almost excessively interesting, but may have helped us make up our minds about all sorts of things.

    I think the situation is about cleared up. Some of the pre-800,000 rifles are perfectly good, as they didn't get the temperature wrong all the time, and a high proportion of the failures were due various unwise practices - it may have been more, veiled by natural reticence - or to the use of defective wartime ammunition. Eliminate those and use only SAAMI-spec ammunition, and the risks become much smaller.

    As far as discussion as a combat sport is concerned, the trouble is that all this was about cleared up by General Hatcher's record of accidents. Others have pinned fair to middling reputations on saying pretty much the same things, but he pinned a very large one. About all that has changed since then is that unless you are lucky enough to find a near-mint early Springfield, the one you have is likely to have experienced a lot more shooting than it had in the 1920s.

    I'm not sure what slam-firing semi-autos brings to this issue, but if it happens, I think it would be as the bolt slams shut after firing a round. (I have the French Permanent Commission's specification which produced an exceeding good military revolver in 1873, and says the parts should "click into place in a military manner". But if a rifle could be slamfired that way, men could surely have been told to close it wimpishly.) So this would be comparing a slamfire with the rifle pointing where it was desired to fire, with an explosion in which direction didn't matter.

    The best heat treatment and nickel steel must be reckoned improvements in any rifle, and so, I think, is an aperture sight over an open one. But I agree that the Springfields so often mistrusted are made to a beautiful standard of workmanship and finish, which wasn't equalled later.

    I think the main virtue of the "Hatcher hole" is that it caused the gas from a ruptured case to be squirted in a safe direction after the receiver ring has either gone toad-shaped or suffered no damage. High-speed gases are reluctant to change direction, which is why a revolver's cylinder gap isn't a much worse source of velocity loss than it actually is. A gas is an almost perfect spring, and escaping gases can achieve a far higher velocity than the bullet. If the receiver ring is liable to burst, it will burst through impact, not pressure buildup, long before the gases change direction and are channelled through a hole.

    Here is my photo of a double ring bulge, experimentally induced by an obstruction in a condemned shotgun barrel. In the time it took for the shot and obstruction to move two inches, the pressure wave that produced the bulge has bounced back to the inside of the cartridge, bounced forward, and after about thirty inches of travel, has hit the shot again and made another bulge.

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Minuteshaver View Post
    how do the SHT recievers compare in safety to the drill rifles that were converted back into rifles that could shoot live ammo?
    Most drill rifles are A303s. No reason to convert one to a shooter. 100s of A303s out there.
    Last edited by HappyWarrior; 07-16-2017 at 04:33 PM.

  19. #39
    PAPERPATCH MASTER


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    GEE! I`m glad that I didn`t ask a controversial subject question?Robert

  20. #40
    Boolit Master lefty o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyWarrior View Post
    Really and you were at the Bulge and Hürtgen Forest ? My father was, as a company commander, and I trust what he told me a great deal more than someone who was not there. You can ignore the truth if that suits you and, of course, the only way you can defeat my facts (temporarily) is by getting me banned.

    Doubt you've ever seen a dead trooper with a jammed up M-16 caused by another example of lowest bidder mindset. Where were you in 68' ?

    Being correct is the best reward.
    you know, being correct is a pretty good reward, and you are not correct!

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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