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Thread: Do we have room for overt sinners in our Churches?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

    Ickisrulz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opos View Post
    May I inquire who withing the particular church organization makes the determination to oust or include someone from membership? Aside from the Bible as the "go to" book...where would one go to find the particular church's "rules of conduct"? I sometimes get the feeling that mortal men place themselves in a position of superiority and control where their particular organization is involved. Because someone carries a particular "title" within the organization...does that person have a closer tie to Jesus or God or is it to satisfy some mortal need and ego?
    Churches have leadership and it varies depending on how things are set up. Sometimes it's the pastor making all the decisions, sometimes deacons work with the pastor, sometimes there is a board. These are the people who are in authority to make decisions. Hopefully these decisions will be based on the Bible. Like any authority, church authority can be abused.

    I am a little surprised to see so many here push aside the Bible's guidance because it doesn't mesh with their own ideas of how a church is supposed to function. It isn't even ignorance. It is willful disregard.

    What would you have church leadership do if a guy came in and started smoking in the middle of the service? What if he wouldn't put it out and refused to leave? I guess you'd better let him do what he wants because he needs to hear the Word, right?
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 07-13-2017 at 08:36 AM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    My point being

    men who don't take care of their families are" worse than unbelievers", right?
    Only one unforgivable sin unbelief
    I honestly don't understand your point and I think you missed mine. A guy who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever and should not be a deacon or in any position of church leadership. This would be Paul's line of thinking anyway.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you for those answers Claude!

  4. #44
    Boolit Master



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    I honestly don't understand your point and I think you missed mine. A guy who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever

    Unbelief is a unforgivable sin

    A deadbeat father can and have been forgiven
    An unbeliever cant be forgiven because he or she doesn't believe

    and should not be a deacon or in any position of church leadership.
    I agree

    This would be Paul's line of thinking anyway.

    How is that?
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
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  5. #45
    Boolit Master



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    Where in the Bible does it say all sin is equal. If I cut in line at the theater, is that equal to murder?
    The Bible provides the answer. Why not read it. Here, let me do it for you:

    ◄ Mark 14:21 ►
    Verse (Click for Chapter)
    New International Version
    The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

    ◄ Luke 17:2 ►
    Verse (Click for Chapter)
    New International Version
    It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

    ◄ Matthew 18:6 ►
    Verse (Click for Chapter)
    New International Version
    "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

    1 Corinthians 5:1

    Immorality Rebuked
    1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…

    In the Old testament many sins were capital offenses, like sodomy
    Penalty was death
    Many other enumerated sins not capital offenses.
    All sin is not the same.

    How we get to all sin is the same is crazy. It is not Bibical and makes no sense. Why do people just make it up when the Bible is clear and unambigious on simple issues like this.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  6. #46
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    All sins are equal and the wage of sin is death- This is why Christ died on the CROSS so we can be saved.
    Only one unforgivable sin unbelief
    Unbelief is not the only unforgivable sin. There are going to be people who beleive but blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. According to the third chapter of Mark, 29th verse, they will remain unclean forever.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  7. #47
    Boolit Master



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    I hope this helps you understand my position

    Are all sins the same in God’s eyes?


    It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.

    At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.

    Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).

    In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:21 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”

    When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

    However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life.
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
    Theodore Roosevelt

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  8. #48
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by NoAngel View Post
    Unbelief is not the only unforgivable sin. There are going to be people who beleive but blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. According to the third chapter of Mark, 29th verse, they will remain unclean forever.
    blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF
    I was taught this when I was 13 years old
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
    Theodore Roosevelt

    NRA
    BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER

  9. #49
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    I honestly don't understand your point and I think you missed mine. A guy who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever

    Unbelief is a unforgivable sin

    A deadbeat father can and have been forgiven
    An unbeliever cant be forgiven because he or she doesn't believe

    and should not be a deacon or in any position of church leadership.
    I agree

    This would be Paul's line of thinking anyway.

    How is that?

    When Paul said a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever, he was speaking of conduct not whether or not the individual was saved. Christians are supposed to act better than those in the world. Although the ground truth is that there are some really decent people who don't give God a second thought and some really crummy people who identify as Christians.

    We cannot know exactly where people stand with God because we don't know thoughts and motivations. But we are supposed to examine behaviors to get some idea. In John's 1st Epistle he gave guidance on knowing if one is a Christian: following Christ's commandments, not living a life characterized by sin and loving our brothers and sister.

    Would a man who gets drunk and beats his wife strike you as meeting John's litmus test?

  10. #50
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    When Paul said a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever, he was speaking of conduct not whether or not the individual was saved. Christians are supposed to act better than those in the world. Although the ground truth is that there are some really decent people who don't give God a second thought and some really crummy people who identify as Christians.

    We cannot know exactly where people stand with God because we don't know thoughts and motivations. But we are supposed to examine behaviors to get some idea. In John's 1st Epistle he gave guidance on knowing if one is a Christian: following Christ's commandments, not living a life characterized by sin and loving our brothers and sister.

    Would a man who gets drunk and beats his wife strike you as meeting John's litmus test?
    Lets say a man is 18 he runs out on a young lady he got in trouble he also abused her physically. 20 years later he finds the lord. He is forgiven. An unbeliever will not be forgiven unless he believes.
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
    Theodore Roosevelt

    NRA
    BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER

  11. #51
    Boolit Master

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    The Unpardonable Sin is mentioned in Matthew 12:32. It is specially identified as "blasphemy against the Spirit." The occasion is that the Pharisees claimed Jesus used the power of Satan to drive out a demon from a man.

    After witnessing such a powerful sign that could only have come from God, the Pharisees chose to ignore it and claimed it was done through Satan. They didn't keep this idea to themselves, but they spread this lie among those who saw the miracle hoping to influence them.

    So, my opinion is that the Unpardonable Sin is speaking falsehoods against overwhelming evidence of the Holy Spirit's works claiming them to be the work of Satan in order to adversely influence people.

    I do not believe unbelief to be the Unpardonable Sin because:

    1. It is a generic state of man, why specifically mention it?
    2. Unbelief is forgivable as show time and again in the Bible.
    3. Simple unbelief doesn't fit the context of the biblical passage.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master



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    The unpardonable sin today is the state of continued unbelief. The Spirit currently convicts the unsaved world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). To resist that conviction and willfully remain unrepentant is to “blaspheme” the Spirit. There is no pardon, either in this age or in the age to come, for a person who rejects the Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ and then dies in unbelief. The love of God is evident: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). And the choice is clear: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
    Theodore Roosevelt

    NRA
    BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    Lets say a man is 18 he runs out on a young lady he got in trouble he also abused her physically. 20 years later he finds the lord. He is forgiven. An unbeliever will not be forgiven unless he believes.
    Does he stop beating women? Biblical belief is not merely mental assent. Biblical belief brings about a change in behavior. Without a change in conduct and worldview, belief is of little value.

    So if a former wife-beater hears the Gospel and repents resulting in Christian conduct he is no longer worse than an unbeliever. He is a new creature. The young lady he abused still hates his guts probably.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    Would a man who gets drunk and beats his wife strike you as meeting John's litmus test?

    What if a man gets cancer, say from smoking, and can't take care of his family. What about a man that eats too much and becomes so obese he can't provide? Does that put him in the same seat as the alcoholic because he can't take care of his family? Sin caused it. Where the church let this family down was by having no understanding of the disease of alcoholism and rallying around them both! Thank God my son was able to find freedom from his addiction, grace , and faith through a Christ based program. Having dealings with these Christians helped open my eyes to how legalism destroys and love and understanding saves.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF
    I was taught this when I was 13 years old

    Well it's not.
    I've met a couple guys over the years. One in particular would tell you in a heartbeat that there absolutely WAS a God and he could go pound sand.
    Okay, that's not what he said but I'm not so inclined to repeat it. Pretty scary individual to talk to to be honest.

    There is no point of view conceivable that doesn't have some human, somewhere, believing it wholeheartedly.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  16. #56
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCP View Post
    The unpardonable sin today is the state of continued unbelief. The Spirit currently convicts the unsaved world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). To resist that conviction and willfully remain unrepentant is to “blaspheme” the Spirit. There is no pardon, either in this age or in the age to come, for a person who rejects the Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ and then dies in unbelief. The love of God is evident: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). And the choice is clear: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).
    You are ignoring the very definition of "blasphemy." Blasphemy means irreverent, profane and/or slanderous speech about God. You cannot blaspheme unless you open your mouth.

    Unbelief is a condition of intellect, emotion and will. An individual can be an unbeliever their entire life without being a blasphemer.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Would a man who gets drunk and beats his wife strike you as meeting John's litmus test?

    What if a man gets cancer, say from smoking, and can't take care of his family. What about a man that eats too much and becomes so obese he can't provide? Does that put him in the same seat as the alcoholic because he can't take care of his family? Sin caused it. Where the church let this family down was by having no understanding of the disease of alcoholism and rallying around them both! Thank God my son was able to find freedom from his addiction, grace , and faith through a Christ based program. Having dealings with these Christians helped open my eyes to how legalism destroys and love and understanding saves.
    What are you looking for in this post? Sin has consequences for the sinner and those around him. Our job as Christians is to avoid sins so we do not adversely effect ourselves or our loved ones (sins are a choice). If we don't we have failed in our duties.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    To me, unbelief is not as black and white as it seems on the surface.

    When Christians first came to North America, no doubt many Native Americans laughed it off. Here comes foreign invaders with an incredible story. Hearing the truth doesn't always get the point home.
    You have to admit, the power of the Lord is a big pill to swallow the first time you hear it, especially if you've lived for a number of years.
    So, are we to beleive an aborigine in the Northern Territory of Oz who only heard the story once in passing will be cast into a lake of fire? Or the ones who never heard it at all.
    The church I was raised in said they will all burn. *sigh*

    Thankfully it will not fall to the judgement of men but to one with a touch more wisdom. Some things are black and white, but not everything.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  19. #59
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    You are ignoring the very definition of "blasphemy." Blasphemy means irreverent, profane and/or slanderous speech about God. You cannot blaspheme unless you open your mouth.

    Unbelief is a condition of intellect, emotion and will. An individual can be an unbeliever their entire life without being a blasphemer.
    Taking your words if you take the Lords name in vain or use JC in a heated moment. You are a blasphemer and cant be forgiven.
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

    "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
    Theodore Roosevelt

    NRA
    BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    What are you looking for in this post?

    The fact that churches judge one sin more harshly than another that has the same consequences, and it's easier to kick'em out than minister to the calamity that's the human condition!

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