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Thread: Do we have room for overt sinners in our Churches?

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
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    I don't despise addicts.

    Your words and phrases betray your feelings towards addiction.

  2. #102
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I don't despise addicts.

    Your words and phrases betray your feelings towards addiction.

    I remember a documentary on the 7 deadly sins, sloth gluttony, and so forth, that the whole thing was about moderation of all things. even going to church to much was technically sinful when it went past a sane moderate amount.

    As for thoughts on the original post,

    What do you do when the overt and unrepentant sinners ARE LEADING THE CHURCH, from PULPIT and from the board of directors? When the local pulpits are filled by the people leading the un holy, and un biblicaly correct Satanist and wiccan groups sunday after noon?

  3. #103
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I don't despise addicts.

    Your words and phrases betray your feelings towards addiction.
    I sure hope so because I have been very straightforward.

    Just because a person "really, really" wants to do something doesn't excuse the sinfulness of the action. For example:

    1. A man might really, really want to have an affair with his next door neighbor's wife. His sex drive is going crazy. In other words, his biology is compelling him.
    2. A man is honestly attracted to another man. He wants to begin a homosexual relationship. He is being compelled by his biology, his psychology (due to past experiences) and the outside influence of society telling him it is OK.

    In both cases the Bible says acting on these desires is sin. We cannot help our biology and how we were raised. But we can determine how we will act. Ultimately we can say, "No." The Bible requires us to control our actions, not our urges.

    Even if a person is beyond the point of being able to control his willpower, conscience decisions and actions got him to that place. The situation did not happen overnight or against his will.

    I have a certain amount of sympathy for young heterosexuals with raging hormones, alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals, pedophiles, and any other person whose biology seems to be working against them when it comes to doing the right thing. It is a very hard path. But when it comes to behavior, we are all accountable to God and our fellow man.

    You seem to have a high view of Scripture. Can you give me any examples of sins in the Bible that were excused because someone was overcome by their biology? I cannot think of any.

  4. #104
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I sure hope so because I have been very straightforward.

    Just because a person "really, really" wants to do something doesn't excuse the sinfulness of the action. For example:

    1. A man might really, really want to have an affair with his next door neighbor's wife. His sex drive is going crazy. In other words, his biology is compelling him.
    2. A man is honestly attracted to another man. He wants to begin a homosexual relationship. He is being compelled by his biology, his psychology (due to past experiences) and the outside influence of society telling him it is OK.

    In both cases the Bible says acting on these desires is sin. We cannot help our biology and how we were raised. But we can determine how we will act. Ultimately we can say, "No." The Bible requires us to control our actions, not our urges.

    Even if a person is beyond the point of being able to control his willpower, conscience decisions and actions got him to that place. The situation did not happen overnight or against his will.

    I have a certain amount of sympathy for young heterosexuals with raging hormones, alcoholics, drug addicts, homosexuals, pedophiles, and any other person whose biology seems to be working against them when it comes to doing the right thing. It is a very hard path. But when it comes to behavior, we are all accountable to God and our fellow man.

    You seem to have a high view of Scripture. Can you give me any examples of sins in the Bible that were excused because someone was overcome by their biology? I cannot think of any.
    Exactly right
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  5. #105
    Boolit Master
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    The other way to look at this is that the church should have protected the wife from her abusive husband despite what she wanted. It is a well known fact that emotions cloud battered women's judgement.
    You show ME where there is any authority in the scriptures to remove anyone from their marriage against their will!

    . The world may call an addiction a disease, but the Bible says we are all accountable for our actions.
    Addiction IS a disease! Yes we are to be accountable for our actions, but addiction is a disease of the mind, body, and soul that reaches all family members and friends of the afflicted! I hope the way you have chosen to deal with the addicts by washing your hands of them works for you, but it did NOT work for me! It certainly is easier to walk away from them, let the disease run its course and destroy both body and soul, than to engage and invest in an addict and possibly save a body, soul, and family!

    If find it bizarre how we "the Christian community" categorize sin. How that alcoholic is shunned as having no self control, but that 500lb diabetic needs prayers and treatment and love when their disease is just plain old gluttony!

    I think Romans 7 has a lot to say about the fight between sin (our fleshly body) and our spirit!

    Now you can lay out sin into any category you like, and you can figure out how to purge it from your assembly, but one is the same as the other, but some do have greeter consequences here on earth.

  6. #106
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    "You show ME where there is any authority in the scriptures to remove anyone from their marriage against their will!"

    I never said remove her. Action to help her is necessary and has been God's way since Genesis. I would have reported the guy to the police, family services and asked him to leave the home. I would have encourage the wife to press charges and find a support system.

    "I hope the way you have chosen to deal with the addicts by washing your hands of them works for you, but it did NOT work for me! "

    I don't know where you got your information about me. It is incorrect in any event. How we deal with individual family members is different than placing an abusive addict in the position of deacon. Christians shouldn't give up on people who have failed (just like God). But sometimes (just like God) we have to allow for the adverse consequences to do their work ("rock bottom" and all).

    "If find it bizarre how we "the Christian community" categorize sin. How that alcoholic is shunned as having no self control, but that 500lb diabetic needs prayers and treatment and love when their disease is just plain old gluttony!"

    Gluttony is a serious problem. I have never excused it. This is another area of controlling actions resulting from really, really wanting to do something. I also understand that not every overweight person is a glutton.

    "Now you can lay out sin into any category you like, and you can figure out how to purge it from your assembly, but one is the same as the other, but some do have greeter consequences here on earth."

    In my posts in this thread I have said some sin has to be dealt with in the local church due to its damaging effects on the assembly. Other sins should remain between the Christian and God. The church does not exist to point out every persons' short comings.

  7. #107
    Boolit Master



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    Common sense
    Sorely lacking here
    I should just adopt what Ickisrulz posts as it seems entirely consistent with common sense
    Where in the Bible does it say
    "Please check your brain at the church door?
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The other way to look at this is that the church should have protected the wife from her abusive husband despite what she wanted. It is a well known fact that emotions cloud battered women's judgement. Not to mention the idea that this man held a position of honor and respect in the church as a deacon that he was allowed to keep. This church failed miserably in this situation.

    Once a man realizes he's an addict, it is on him to change his ways. The world may call an addiction a disease, but the Bible says we are all accountable for our actions. If this fellow couldn't control himself when he drank...he should have moved away from his poor wife until he got his act together.

    Which is worse? Beating your wife or giving into natural desires and engaging in sex with a girlfriend? Or another way to ask the question, which would bring you greater shame if done by your own son?

    In order to be biblical, the youth pastor should have been encouraged to get married and then have all the sex he wanted. The drunken, abusive deacon should have been removed from office and then arrested.

    "Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain." 1 Tim 3:8

    "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." 1 Cor 7:9
    That's an interventionist view, and it is indeed a valid point of view. However, we're all familiar with that old adage, "The road to hell's paved with good intentions." Much liberal philosophy and action (and laws passed on its basis) ALL claims to be "concerned for others." However, having seen some of that first hand, I've come to regard it as often dysfunctional, rather than helpful. Granted, it can go either way, and that's what makes it a thorny "theological" issue. But WANTING to help, and actually ACHIEVING it, are not always the same thing. And the example I cited of a man who used to occasionally (but not very often at all) beat his wife, occurred long ago now, when there WAS no real "treatment" for it. And all that would have happened is SHE would have been EXTREMELY angry with whoever was trying to "help" her, and HE would probably have gotten much worse, much faster. That's how things worked back then. I saw too much of it to not notice these things.

    Today? Nobody cares much about what happens. Only that "the law" be fulfilled. We've come to a point where we'll follow most any sort of law and/or regulation blindly, and nobody seems to really decipher what the actual effects will actually be. I could go on, but maybe you get what I'm talking about?

  9. #109
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    Anyone who's ever worn a badge and tried to "help" a battered woman" knows that the next day, they'll deny anything and everything they said the night before when they were scared. It's a puzzling, frustrating and absotively maddening situation, and unless you've been through it, you can't understand the processes involved. Even then, it's awfully hard to understand it.

    And as to alcoholics, one of the ways AA helps so many find and keep their sobriety is by LOVING them enough to HELP them find their OWN reasons to quit, and to CONTROL themselves as they progress through the 12 steps. And wonder of wonders, it works! Yet one more example of how what Christ tried so hard to teach us, works when nothing else seems to! Would that we might all learn this lesson!

  10. #110
    Boolit Master
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    Amen Blackwater!

    Thank God almighty our elected judge in this county is a Christian elder that also understands what it takes for people to be helped, and it isn't breaking up families, kicking them out of church, or locking them up and throwing away the key!

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    That's an interventionist view, and it is indeed a valid point of view. However, we're all familiar with that old adage, "The road to hell's paved with good intentions." Much liberal philosophy and action (and laws passed on its basis) ALL claims to be "concerned for others." However, having seen some of that first hand, I've come to regard it as often dysfunctional, rather than helpful. Granted, it can go either way, and that's what makes it a thorny "theological" issue. But WANTING to help, and actually ACHIEVING it, are not always the same thing. And the example I cited of a man who used to occasionally (but not very often at all) beat his wife, occurred long ago now, when there WAS no real "treatment" for it. And all that would have happened is SHE would have been EXTREMELY angry with whoever was trying to "help" her, and HE would probably have gotten much worse, much faster. That's how things worked back then. I saw too much of it to not notice these things.

    Today? Nobody cares much about what happens. Only that "the law" be fulfilled. We've come to a point where we'll follow most any sort of law and/or regulation blindly, and nobody seems to really decipher what the actual effects will actually be. I could go on, but maybe you get what I'm talking about?
    Are you actually suggesting no one stopped getting drunk and beating their wives in the United States before formalized treatment programs were available? The writers of the Bible seemed to think a man could refrain from drunkenness and this was before many of the mental health programs we have now.

    The Bible's guidance was valid back when it was written and at all times between then and now. It is the Church's authority for faith and conduct.

  12. #112
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    Ick, you know well I didn't intend any such thing! You're just nitpicking me now - looking for something to disparage. There are Christians who LIKE being critical of others, and there are those who prefer to work on their own selves. I've intervened in situations that could have been dangerous to my own life and limbs. So I have NO problem intervening when it's called for. But I also learned a hard lesson in dealing with battered women. They'll embarass you, or worse, and not infrequently, will beat the daylights out of you for your efforts to "help." And they'll also HATE those who try to help as well. So where in that does the interventionist view make out? It takes more than good intentions to help these women. I'll leave the subject there.

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