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Thread: Any other Jeepers here?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoot-n-lead View Post
    A pretty narrow set of naturally occurring geographic parameters have to exist to require more than naturally aspirated engines for off-roading.
    /\ AGREED /\

    I'll go a little farther. I've never seen a situation in which a straight six, with the right gears and tires, wouldn't get the job done OFF-ROAD.
    I have seen some situations in which a little more power allowed for more civilized highway gears without unduly compromising the of-road performance.

    The ability to pick your line while driving off-road seems to be a drying art. It saddens me a bit when I see someone whose only solution to off road obstacles is wider tires and more horsepower.

    Tall skinny tires (AKA Pizza Cutters), the right gear, low end torque and a little common sense; will get you through places that horsepower and fat tires will not. The exception to the skinny tires is when operating on mud or sand that has no bottom. Sometimes you need to spread that load over a bigger footprint and a fat tire is the solution in those conditions.

  2. #62
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    If you doubt horse power is an advantage to to a mud bog race sometime. Most stock vehicles cant make it half way through the ones up here and that's even v8 stock units. You need to spin your tires to clean them out in the mud or you about instantly get slicks. Same with hill climbs. Go to one once and witness the stock 6 cyls running out of steam half way up the hill. They run out of power and slow down and start to spin. Same goes for rock climbing when you need that extra grunt to pop up over a rock. Granted a 4 or 6 cyl will get you to your hunting spot and out to watch birds but theres absolutely no doubt that more hp is an advantage when the going gets real tough. Honestly I could probably get by with my old 4.0 wrangler but the 2.5 wrangler ive got sitting in the garage runs out of power fast even for what I use it for and its about dangerous on the road. Tops out at 70 with a good tail wind on a perfectly level road. If you get behind a truck doing 50 you stay behind a truck going 50.

  3. #63
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    Racing and competition is one thing, getting from point A to Point B is another.

    A mud bog race isn't exactly analogous to reaching the back of a farm to cut firewood and I don't really want to drive that mud bog rig down the highway after I'm done with my off-road chores.
    There are work horses and show horses.

    You'll get no argument from me concerning the lack of power from the 4 cylinder TJ's. I've driven them and they are underpowered. Maybe as a coastal town Jeep than occasionally drives on the sand but never climbs a hill or needs to travel on a highway?

    I drove 2WD pickups in places that I shouldn't have and trust me, you learn how to drive off road when you DON'T have 4WD to save you. I also drove trucks with 6 cylinder engines and I drove trucks with V-8's. The 6 cylinder will never win a race but it will get the job done. The extra power of a bigger engine is nice on the highway and that's where it shines.

  4. #64
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    Don't know if its proper terminology or not but we used to call it static compression. All power adders like turbos, blowers no2 add static compression but increasing the amount oxygen being compressed. to compensate for it you NEED more fuel or you go lean and detonate and in most cases if your running any kind of high boost or more then about an 200 hp no2 kit you need to lower compression and use forged piston that have a bit more strength to take the abuse and heat that detonation brings. No2 can be very safe if its tuned properly but the cheap dry and even wet systems that people just bolt on and go scare me. If I was even doing a 100hp kit id be visiting a tuner with a dyno to make darned sure I wasn't going lean at any rpm. Just reading your plugs is a poor way to gauge fuel air mixtures. If you cant get to a tuner AT LEAST run a air/fuel ratio gauge or an exhaust temp gauge or both. A throttle peddle activation switch is real smart too as you can bend rods and cranks if you turn your no2 on at to low of an rpm. Most smart guys run window switches too that shut off the no2 if fuel pressure drops for any reason. For all these reasons I'm not a fan of cheap no2 kits. Then like was said you have the hastle of getting bottles filled, keep your bottle filled and even tuning can be tricky because as you use no2 the bottle pressure drops and you make less power. So to get the best power if your going to race you about need a full bottle. I also don't like cheap kits because most don't come with a purge valve to get liquid no2 out of the lines. Liquid no2 is bad news for your motor.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    Your right Lloyd. Generally power adders aren't used with high compression. Using a turbo, or supercharger and even nitrous requires experience and know how. Most of the idiots out there try to run platinum spark plugs with turbo's, superchargers, and nitrous. Platinum spark plugs are a big NO NO because they DO cause detonation. The ONLY exception is the FACTORY setups like GM's Cadillac and Corvette engines for example because the computers and sensors are designed for them.

    For the record Mary.... My last toy ran low compression with a D1R Procharger making 18-20 LBS of intercooled boost. The engine featured forged pistons, premium rod bolts and main bolts, LT4 heads and intake and 60lb injectors with an FMU which gave me 120+ PSI fuel pressure under boost. I ran it one time thru the 1/4 mi. I spun thru 1st and 2nd gear and managed a 10.12@138mph going thru the traps in 5th gear. I ran 7K thru the gears with the 355. After my first run I was told to leave the drag strip and not come back until I got a cage rated for my speed in it. This car had 9's easily in its grasp but I felt my grocery getter would be too hard running around thru town with the added safety features added to it. Mary, this is what experience can do for you with 9:00-1 compression with mostly stock available Chevy parts and the mild LT4 cam.

    Using power adders like a supercharger, turbo, or nitrous is basically the same as running high compression since these power adders increase compression. I'll give you a hint.... too much compression with the nitrous. Wrong fuel blend. Wrong air fuel ratio under boost. Wrong tuning.

  5. #65
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    Lloyd,

    We always called it static compression also. I'll agree with a lot of points you have made. In todays world with for example GM's 1998 and on up computers one can add what is called a "wet" kit and the computer automatically adjusts the gas mixture to compensate for the nitrous gas. In anything computer controlled from 1997 and down GM's require a kit which consists of nitrous and gas. In todays world the air / fuel gauge is common place as is the dyno. The racing computers like I mentioned generally are piggy backed to the stock computer or in the case of the vehicle being old before the days of the computer it is run stand alone. Thes computers provide instant read outs so one can actually tune themselves with the dyno as the backup.

    Back in the late 60's early 70's sure we read the plugs to determine what the engine was doing but also went by the known charts for nitrous which were way rich gas wise and never tried to lean anything down. We didn't have air/fuel gauges back then and no computers either. We did the best with what we had and we must have done something correct becaause we didn't burn pistons or burn holes thru them.

    In todays world there is no excuse to burn holes in pistons and or break ring lands. Forged pistons are the only way to go with ANY high performance engine regardless if it has a power adder or not. Smart switches are the only way to go with nitrous systems because in addition to the wido open throttle switch the window switch won't allow the nitrous to trigger until the RPM limit has been reached.

    Nitrous with another power adder... I used a shot of nitrous on the outside of the intercooler to actually cool the intercooler to lower the internal temps to boost the power of the supercharger on one particular engine I worked on. The 75Hp shot actually provided almost that much additional power to the engine by simply lowering the inlet temp on the dyno. Near the end of having my Z-28 I was actually contemplating a 75 shot at the intercooler and a 75 shot before the throttle valve but common sense took over. You mentioned bottle temps but I don't believe you touched on over pressure in the bottle which in several instances I observed resulted in blown engines.

    The nitrous in the 428 with that compression is totally asking for nothing but trouble. Pull the nitrous off and you will probably quit burning pistons. Want to make it run? Do what I suggested and purchase a "FAST" computer with all the sensors. Beings that you have a electronics background it will be easy for you to fabricate the necessary wiring harness to hook up the sensors. Dump the aviation gas and blend a mixture of which any good tuner will be able to help with. I'll be honest here I'm not going to give out the mixture I used.

    ANY power adder will require additional Gas. Generally 10:00-1 is the absolute maximum compression ratio one should consider using a power adder with. As Lloyd mentioned and I agree 100% with is the static compression raises considerably when ANY power adder is used under boost or in the case of nitrous under injection. In my case I was right around 9-9:50-1 which required special pistons which were forged to be made and generally requires that the cylinder heads be O-ringed.

  6. #66
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    That Mustang went to the graveyard in 1986 after a blown tire sent it into the wall at Brainard International Raceway... my friend quit drag racing(well at least seriously) then. Now he runs more tame setups like his dual dual turbo Mustang(another 428) with no nitrous. Thing is still barely streetable...

  7. #67
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    "streatable" Now theres the word. today we have cars that run 10s that are capable of daily driving. Cars in the 9s that can get you comfortably to the drive in on Saturday. those I considers streetable. Watch that show street outlaws and they call themselves street racers but they are barely legal (not is some states) race cars with lights and a license plate on them. Id like to see a show where anyone who raced had to first drive a 100mile road course pull to the finishing line of that and line up and drag.

  8. #68
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    My friend has learned and his buddy has a dyno in the shop. But he is tuning to the edge so it is not that street friendly. It is his weekend go have fun car and not his daily driver which is a piece of garbage small Chevy full of dents and rust lol His theory is why drive something good to the college parking lot for the kids to slam doors into(he teaches electronics 3 days a week) plus nobody is going to want to steal the piece of junk. Mustangs are his garage queens that come out for a weekend drive, he has 7 last I heard plus he is building a sleeper of a Galaxy 500 7 Liter...

    Streetable... My Z-28 had a LT-4 cam which really didn't amount to anything too much different than the stock LT-1 cam. If I took the supercharger belt off you wouldn't know it was capable of running low 10's under boost. It was completely capable of passing any smog test in any state to be considered 100% street legal. You don't need a nasty lumpy cam to get a car into the 10's in todays world. You do however need to know what you are doing. Less is generally more. Most mistakes are trying to add either too big turbo's or too big of a carb/carbs.

    The one thing I absolutely loved about the Turbo Buicks is you could drive them to the strip empty out the trunk with your charirs , cooler, and a few hand tools change the plugs and go racing and put a lot of the so called performance cars to shame. When you were done you loaded the stuff back in the trunk threw the new trophy in the back seat and went home. The Buick GS455 Stage 1 or stage 2 was the ultimate sleeper. Years ago when they were new I watched as a guy drove in from out of state jacked up the rear pulled off his rear wheels with street tires changed to some slicks and ran low to mid 11.'s

    The street outlaw show depicts the absolute maximum. Most states will not allow a car to pass unless emissions and safety equipment is all there. As a rule nothing with a super wild cam works well with either turbo's or superchargers because of the excessive tuning required and I'm talking street and not strip now. With strip only cars generally the builder is also the racer and generally has a dyno or two in his garage. The slightest change in boost or timing requires the car to be strapped down on the dyno and tuning to be started again. And I wouldn't believe everything you see on the show because the show is designed for drama and ratings. Nothing on that show would pass a street legal test in my state and note just about all the people on the show have their own shops with their own dyno's.
    Last edited by MaryB; 07-21-2017 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    /\ AGREED /\

    I'll go a little farther. I've never seen a situation in which a straight six, with the right gears and tires, wouldn't get the job done OFF-ROAD.
    .........
    Couldn't agree more. My '05 has the straight six and a six speed trans. With the high/low that gives me 12 forward speeds. In low range 1st gear I can step out and walk faster than the jeep. My days of "I got 4 wheel drive and a winch....I can go anywhere" are long over. I found that attitude ended up with digging out, pulling or getting pulled out more than I wanted. My jeep is to get me from point A to B in comfort in town, urban and out in the desert.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

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    That's age speaking Larry. I was going to get a hog when my last kid graduated university but..... I'll stay with my truck.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grmps View Post
    That's age speaking Larry. I was going to get a hog when my last kid graduated university but..... I'll stay with my truck.
    Ya sure got that right....my elk hunting rule for a number of years has been; never shoot one on the down hill side of a road.......
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  12. #72
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    so what would you guys buy to tow behind a motor home? just like the idea of a 4wd if I want / need it

  13. #73
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    This is my used to have listing
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    CJ-2a
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    NRA Benefactor 2004 USAF RET 1971-95

  14. #74
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    I learned to drive with a 47 Willys , then at 14 bought a 52 Willys ( Ford built ) 5 years after that one rolled I got a 81 CJ5 ( in 1991 ) and it's still in the driveway and goes to the woods every weekend ( 302 Ford powered of course ). actually the Frame, transmission & T/case are the only original bits. Gota love em.

    hey, watch where ya point that thing!

  15. #75
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    Jeeps...love 'em. Been running various configurations of military jeeps around since 1967 in the Army. Then switched to pickups. That got to be a hassle as everyone wanted you to be a family owned moving service. So, couple of years ago, bought a Sport Wrangler. Nice but small. The dealer called one day and made me a deal I couldn't refuse on a demonstrator Oscar Mike Edition so now, I'm enjoying that. No mudding and I take it easy in the dove fields but I'm again a happy camper. Never be without one again./beagle
    diplomacy is being able to say, "nice doggie" until you find a big rock.....

  16. #76
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    With the exception of operating in soft sand or bottomless mud, a tall skinny tire with aggressive thread will out perform a fat tire almost every time. If you have to spin a tire to clean out the tread, you're already in trouble. And if you do need to spin the tire there's a fine line between cleaning the thread and burying the tire. Trying to float a wide tire on top of snow, mud, dirt, etc. is a tough balance between power and momentum. It works in a narrow window and when you get outside of it, you're digging or walking.

    Fat tires and big engines look cool to 18 year olds in mall parking lots. People that actually work with vehicles that are routinely driven on and off road generally don't take that approach unless they work in sand or really deep mud.

    Knowing how to pick you line off road and knowing how to conserve momentum will KEEP you out of trouble more often than horsepower will GET you out of trouble.

  17. #77
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    Little Suzuki Samuri, I see them being towed all the time. Pretty capable off road with a few mods.

    Quote Originally Posted by wgr View Post
    so what would you guys buy to tow behind a motor home? just like the idea of a 4wd if I want / need it

  18. #78
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    Forgot I owned one of these



    Had a 289 ford, 4 speed, under/overdrive with a top speed of 55mph... had to much rust like most MN cars! 1st gear granny low on the transfer case and then under drive on the add on over/under was 1mph top speed. I would let it idle and crawl over logs and rocks.

  19. #79
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    the real cool thing about the GNs was how cheap it was to make them go fast. Even cheaper then the old small block chev. Theyd run mid to high 13s stock and for less then a grand on bolt on parts you could have them doing very low 12s and for about another 500 for a bigger turbo crack the 11s. That's still being completely docile on the street and pulling 22 mpg on the way to the race with the ac on and drive it to church on sunday with a baby seat in the back (I did it) . Thats a bit quicker then a ls6 chevelle or a hemi cuda. Two of the most well known top dog muscle cars of the 70s. You couldn't even get air with those two motors and if you got 10mpg on the way to the race you were ecstatic. Ive also seen them modded and running like new with over 100k on them. You aint doing that with a old muscle car. About 50k and they needed freshening. That and every 5k they needed valves lashed, points and plugs minimum.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    My friend has learned and his buddy has a dyno in the shop. But he is tuning to the edge so it is not that street friendly. It is his weekend go have fun car and not his daily driver which is a piece of garbage small Chevy full of dents and rust lol His theory is why drive something good to the college parking lot for the kids to slam doors into(he teaches electronics 3 days a week) plus nobody is going to want to steal the piece of junk. Mustangs are his garage queens that come out for a weekend drive, he has 7 last I heard plus he is building a sleeper of a Galaxy 500 7 Liter...

    Streetable... My Z-28 had a LT-4 cam which really didn't amount to anything too much different than the stock LT-1 cam. If I took the supercharger belt off you wouldn't know it was capable of running low 10's under boost. It was completely capable of passing any smog test in any state to be considered 100% street legal. You don't need a nasty lumpy cam to get a car into the 10's in todays world. You do however need to know what you are doing. Less is generally more. Most mistakes are trying to add either too big turbo's or too big of a carb/carbs.

    The one thing I absolutely loved about the Turbo Buicks is you could drive them to the strip empty out the trunk with your charirs , cooler, and a few hand tools change the plugs and go racing and put a lot of the so called performance cars to shame. When you were done you loaded the stuff back in the trunk threw the new trophy in the back seat and went home. The Buick GS455 Stage 1 or stage 2 was the ultimate sleeper. Years ago when they were new I watched as a guy drove in from out of state jacked up the rear pulled off his rear wheels with street tires changed to some slicks and ran low to mid 11.'s

    The street outlaw show depicts the absolute maximum. Most states will not allow a car to pass unless emissions and safety equipment is all there. As a rule nothing with a super wild cam works well with either turbo's or superchargers because of the excessive tuning required and I'm talking street and not strip now. With strip only cars generally the builder is also the racer and generally has a dyno or two in his garage. The slightest change in boost or timing requires the car to be strapped down on the dyno and tuning to be started again. And I wouldn't believe everything you see on the show because the show is designed for drama and ratings. Nothing on that show would pass a street legal test in my state and note just about all the people on the show have their own shops with their own dyno's.

  20. #80
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    I have a 79 CJ7 all done up with secondary and off road usage in mind. I had a 4 wheeler ATV for awhile but I like the extra space and being out of the weather of a small Jeep. Lots of extra room for a friend and canine companions. We are restoring a 65 Willys CJ5 to original condition.
    I went out on a off road ride a few years ago with a bunch of modern Jeeps and the 79 had no problem following the rest of the modern high tech versions. And if something goes amiss it is easy to diagnose and deal with,no computer analysis required.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check