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Thread: Switching powders..........

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    Oh, and I would indeed pay the 19.55 for OE over the regular Goex and Schuetzen pricing
    if it works that well.
    Will probably eventually try the OE in comparison to the Swiss 1.5 I have been using.
    Too bad the KIK went out. I had found that the KIK 2F shot Very Closely with the Swiss 1.5-
    velocity and accuracy.
    beltfed/arnie

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    If you liked what KIK did for you, you're really going to like Olde E
    GUSA #6
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    KIK was a good powder in some cartridges. It was a lot like the old Goex Cartridge. But as it is no longer available
    Don, Jerry at Powder Inc still has the remaining 2009 lot of KIK that was shipped in 2010. It's $14.40, case lot price

    Yes, in addition I like Olde E because they did a better job polishing this grade of powder and they juiced the grades up by adding 40 and 60 mesh grains to yield a higher velocity.
    Charcoal is the 'Engine' for original gunpowder. There are only 3 brands on the market that make their charcoal with Alder Buckthron branches, the best wood with the highest amount of glucose harvested in the Spring... Swiss, KIK and Schuetzen (aka Graf's powder). Goex is still using maple wood charcoal from a commercial producer

    Mesh size comparison between Swiss & Olde E 1.5g & FFFg grades:
    Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
    12 mesh – 0.27% retained
    14 mesh – 5.24% retained
    20 mesh - 92.59% retained
    30 mesh - 0.10% retained
    Through - 0.72%

    Olde E' 1.5Fg:
    20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
    30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
    40 mesh - 0.000%
    50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
    60 mesh - Trace
    80 mesh - Trace Passed


    Swiss FFFg (270.409
    20 mesh - Trace
    30 mesh - 87.2% Hold
    40 mesh - 12.8% Hold
    50 mesh - Trace

    Olde E FFFg:
    10 mesh - Zero
    20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
    30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
    40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
    50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
    60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
    80 mesh - Trace passed
    Last edited by John Boy; 07-13-2017 at 02:55 PM.
    Regards
    John

  4. #24
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpsguy View Post
    Graf and Sons is less expensive, Old Eynsford has more velocity and softer fouling.
    I've not tried Swiss but I agree with the Old Eynsford assessment. I need to chrono some Goex vs OE one of these days.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    In my 43 Spanish I did find O.E. easier to clean than Goex but not enough to worry me any. Never shot either over a chrono as I'm not really interested in that.

    At the price KIK is listed at Powder Inc I'd buy that. Last Goex I bought at Bass Pro the guy asked me what I wanted it for. I looked at him kinda oddly and told him an Argentine 43 Spanish BP. He was just making sure I wanted it for something other than a bomb.

    If I were you, and I'm not, I'd buy the components from a fireworks company and make my own at home. I started doing that and the results are not bad and the price is outstanding.
    Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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    Non nobis Domine,
    non nobis,
    sed nomini tuo da gloriam

  6. #26
    A few of my friends are going to Old E after years of shooting Swiss.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
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    unfortunately, Jerry has only KIK 1f and 1 1/2 left. I had found that the KIK 2F
    performed Very closely to Swiss 1.5.when I used the same WEIGHT, not same volume.
    But the KIK 1 1/2 was not nearly as good, and I have no use for 1F.
    Too bad, I would have bought some more KIK 2F -if he had it.
    beltfed/arnie

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Just recently I ordered two cases of 1.5 Swiss to give it another try for the matches and I put a lot of ladder loads down range with different primers and bullets and to this day I have not found a load that works as good as the 2F OE does in the .45-90 I been using since last summer for the matches. My load for the .45-90 using the same PP bullets I use 84 gr of 1.5 swiss and the OE I use 83 gr of 2F. Those are the best accuracy loads I have worked up using both powders and the point of impact is identical at the 500 mtr and the 1000 yard line with the same sight setting.
    This is not saying that I won't quit trying to find a load using Swiss that works as well for me then the OE does.
    I do shoot to win matches and I will use the best load I can develop to get the job done.

  9. #29
    Boolit Man
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    I'll use Arnie's example. If I travel to Lodi and shoot a match I pay about $80 in gasoline another $80 for two nights for a room if I share with somebody, $50 entry fees, two nights at the lake for fish dinner and cocktails. So what does that come to? For a nickel a shot more and I fire 100 shots it cost me $5 extra if I'm shooting Swiss. Quit worrying about price and shoot the powder that works best for you. Life is too short to drink cheap beer.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old-Win View Post
    I'll use Arnie's example. If I travel to Lodi and shoot a match I pay about $80 in gasoline another $80 for two nights for a room if I share with somebody, $50 entry fees, two nights at the lake for fish dinner and cocktails. So what does that come to? For a nickel a shot more and I fire 100 shots it cost me $5 extra if I'm shooting Swiss. Quit worrying about price and shoot the powder that works best for you. Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
    Yup, That is the example I use when I try to explain to someone the foolishness of trying to save a penny or two.
    I just got back from the NRA nationals. I talk to a lot of friends there. After 18 years there I know most everyone competing.
    Not one person I have talked to that has tried to improve his load accuracy by switching from Swiss to Olde Eynsford or any other powder for that mater, has made the change. They come back to Swiss.

    It could be that I have not talked to everyone. It could be that someone who has placed high or won the nationals is keeping this a secret, but so far as I know, anyone who shoots well did it with Swiss.
    I have a case of Olde Eynsford here and have been testing it for about 18 months and had four sample cans before that. That is a lot of test loads. I have yet to load something that could not be bettered by Swiss in its place.

    Here's to hoping! I would LOVE to find a way to make stellar accurate ammo using an American made powder!
    Chill Wills

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    ... I have a case of Olde Eynsford here and have been testing it for about 18 months and had four sample cans before that. That is a lot of test loads. I have yet to load something that could not be bettered by Swiss in its place.

    Here's to hoping! I would LOVE to find a way to make stellar accurate ammo using an American made powder!
    +1 ................

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The folks that have been shooting Swiss for years and doing well with it have no substantive reason to try anything else. Once you find something that works you stick with it. That's why the majority of those same shooters wouldn't touch a paper patch bullet with some one else pecker...
    But at the same time, I'm reminded of when Express came out, I asked one of the big time guys why he was shooting Swiss instead of Express when Express was showing some good results, his reply back was that he had tried Express, it actually shot better slightly better groups than Swiss, but because he didn't like the people at Goex he wasn't going to use it. I hear the same thing from no small number of folks now. They don't like Hogdon's in any way shape or form and so they're not going to try any of the Eynsford..I also know a shooter that does well, but reports his loads as being Swiss, but is shooting OE..
    Bottom line it all comes back to what Wes said several posts back, the folks that are winning matches consistently could do so with nitrated horse pucky, so long as they have their regular spotter, things have a nasty habit of getting out of control on the score board sometimes without the same ol spotter shooter team...
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I think using Swiss or OE is like this little fellers blankey Name:  58a2c1281c80183d005399a131790185--peanuts-quotes-snoopy-quotes.jpg
Views: 66
Size:  13.5 KB I know it is for me because I haven't found a load using swiss I feel comfortable with, and it is not the cost difference between the two and I'm still working on it.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Well Swiss has been around along time, it has a well deserved reputation. OE hasn't been around all that long, but in the last few years, it has been showing well by the few folks that have taken time to run it. 2015 it won the Quigley, looking at the top 10 finishers at the Q this year, I know there were at least 2 of them and most likely 4 shooting OE( keeping in mind this is the largest single shot rifle match in the world ). A shooter running OE this year has set a new 600 yd national record and won a handful of fairly big silhouette matches..
    It's a taste great/less filling thing.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  15. #35
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    I have run across several shooters that have tried OE and gone back to Swiss, not because it is better but because they had a load that shot well and their time is limited for testing. Also when they go overseas Swiss is what is available.
    I have to admit that I have taken the easy path before just because of time or in some cases frustration trying to work up a new load. I found a load for my Gibbs rifle with Kik that shoots very well. I use OE in my cartridge rifles but haven't tried to work up a load for the Gibbs because I still have some Kik left and I'm lazy.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  16. #36
    Boolit Mold
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    G,day
    Interesting subject,here in Australia Swiss is touted as best practice,I have never used it because of the cost here in AU ,You can be quoted $150au a kilo for it,I use Wano P with some success,others use Wano PP.Have any of you guys tried it?Is it available in the states?price wise about $80au a kilo.

    Cheers Mal in au.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Bob I think you hit the nail square on the head. Folks that have gone thru the covooky dance and found a load aren't likely to take the time away and work up a new load with another powder.

    Mal I've had some good results with the Wano (it's branded as Schuetzen here) 2f in the 45-70, 65 gr with a .030 fiber wad and a 530 gr grease groove bullet. It seemed to work best at zero compression.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    I've shot some quite nice targets at 200m with Schuetzen FFg, but dropped the experimenting because my .45-2.4 lost nearly 100 fps compared to Swiss 1.5, and the velocity variation was off the charts crazy.

    I like OE quite a bit. I shoot a little more Swiss 1.5, but use OE 1.5 in my .40-65. That rifle shoots extremely well so I have zero concern about that particular lot being inferior to Swiss. At the Wyoming state midrange match the rifle kept pace with Rick Moritz until some serious user error on the last 600 yard target. Kenny's results also show the powder is good.

    With that said I use Swiss in my Borchardt so far. In each rifle I shoot whichever powder is working best for me. When shooting for practice cost can be a valid concern, but not for match shooting. I drive between 1000 to 1500 miles each way to the BPTR matches, at 11-12 mpg and a few nights of KOA fees, the cost of powder could be twice as high as Swiss 1.5 and it wouldn't make much difference.

    Chris.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hahndorf1874 View Post
    G,day
    Interesting subject,here in Australia Swiss is touted as best practice,I have never used it because of the cost here in AU ,You can be quoted $150au a kilo for it,I use Wano P with some success,others use Wano PP.Have any of you guys tried it?Is it available in the states?price wise about $80au a kilo.

    Cheers Mal in au.
    Holy Moly, I'm not sure what the conversion rate to US dollars would be but that is some serious money to shoot BP. The long range muzzle loading match is coming up down there in September and the teams have to get there powder in the country since you can't take it with you on airplanes. Of course compared to the cost of getting there that is peanuts. And I thought that the cost of reloading was high when I lived in South Africa.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  20. #40
    I like Swiss,but a good many of my shooting friends are trying Old E.Try some loads with both and let your rifle tell you.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check