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Thread: Matthew 16:18 Peter the rock?

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    Boolit Master 1johnlb's Avatar
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    Matthew 16:18 Peter the rock?

    I know the root of why the Catholics hold this belief of Peter being the rock that Jesus would build His church on , but for the life of me I just can't understand why any protestant denomination would hold the same beliefs or teachings, except for just as Jesus spoke of, leaven.

    Peter was as shaky as they come, wavering from one extreme to the next. Peter was also a man. in the book of Matthew Peter is defined a rock but the word translates to little stone or pebble as seen in John. Although the words rock and stone are used interchangeably in our society, but there's a clear distinction biblically in the two.

    Mark 15:46 shows this in one verse;
    And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulcher which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulcher.

    In the O.T. Rock is solid and what the earth is founded on and stone is what's thrown and able to be moved, thus God wrote the law on stone.

    Looking at the fulness of scripture there's no way Peter is the Rock Jesus builds His church on. Jesus even rebukes Peter in the same chapter " get behind me satan".

    In Matthew 7 it's clear, if any man hear these words of Mine and do them, I will liken him to a wise man that built his house on the rock. In Matthew 16, Peter had just heard the word from God and proclaimed what he heard, " You are the Son of the living God" and Jesus makes the statement on this rock I will build My church. Even Jesus(Son of man) was called the "chef cornerstone" and we "as living stones". We are all just pieces (stones) of the rock.

    God's word is the Rock which the Church will be built, Rhema and written. The Rhema clarifies the written. It was the Rhema that clarified what was written to Peter.

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    "Peter was as shaky as they come, wavering from one extreme to the next."

    No he was "as good as they come." I see this as thread as trolling. Regardless of what you "think," Peter was clearly #1 with Jesus. If Jesus thought he was the best of the best, then we are left with an attack on the Catholic Church and nothing else of value for discussion. How is that good or productive? This belongs in The Pit, not The Chapel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    "Peter was as shaky as they come, wavering from one extreme to the next."

    No he was "as good as they come." I see this as thread as trolling. Regardless of what you "think," Peter was clearly #1 with Jesus. If Jesus thought he was the best of the best, then we are left with an attack on the Catholic Church and nothing else of value for discussion. How is that good or productive? This belongs in The Pit, not The Chapel.
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    To me it comes down to either believing the words of Christ or not believing the words of Christ. Can;t have it both ways.
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    1johnlb, I agree, Bullinger agrees, Jesus is The Rock, and was referring to Himself in that statement. However, because of the timing of the post, and the volatility of some, this will be seen (and already has) as an attack against a religion rather than a teachable moment.

    To those who wish to refute that Christ was speaking of Himself, I urge you to avail yourself of a Companion Bible and see what one noted scholar has to offer.

    http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_com...nion_bible.htm

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    Peter was an awesome guy with lots of guts and far from shaky. Peter was in the "inner circle"--one of Jesus' best friends. He got out of the boat to walk with Jesus on the water. He defended Jesus with his sword. He followed Jesus, putting himself in danger, after he had been arrested. Then there are all the questions Peter asked of Jesus and comments he made that possibly no one else dared even though they might have wanted too.

    We focus too much on him denying Jesus to see the bigger picture. There's also a tendency of some Protestants to dismiss Peter and Mary as trivial because we do not hold the Roman Catholic beliefs. But the biblical picture is that both of these individuals were remarkable and full of faith.

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    guys this is turning into a denominational debate and I am not going to have that in this sub forum. the Bible says not my church says.
    if you want to turn this into the pit I will close this experiment. you asked for a place to discuss Bible not fight over whose church is right.
    now heed my warnings I will close this if I get more church stuff.
    I work with pastors from many denominations and we forget our differences and work on one thing, how can we reach people for Jesus and stop the drug problem in our town.
    stuff like this is what stops the churches from doing what Jesus commanded us to do, bare fruit, good fruit, much fruit.

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    Act 1:15-16
    In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)
    and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus.

    Act 2:12-14
    Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
    Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
    Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

    Act 2:36-38
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
    When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    I've always thought the scriptures where quite clear here. How Jesus is the chief corner stone (Isa 28:16
    So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. Eph 2:20
    built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.) Then from Peter on up the church is built. You can say Peter was not perfect of course, but he did take the helm of the believers, preached the first sermon, and was the first to proclaim how to be saved.

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    This was not an attack on any one church, in case you missed it it was directed at protestants. I was piled on by bullies, who apparently are going to pile on anyone who makes a statement that contradicts their circle. How then can anyone discuss, scripture, if everyone is offended.

    I clearly stated, I knew why Catholics hold this belief and only compared Peter with the other twelve. It was just my opinion taken from scripture of Peter's shaky nature. If that offends you, I'm so sorry.

    I don't understand why people draw lines in the sand and say it's this way or that. They build again the walls of seperation that Jesus died to tear down.

    And for those who thought I am baiting, go back to the already locked, thread. From the very start of it the bait was dangled, for someone to take and not by me. I just took it and got piled on.

    How is it possible to discuss theology if a select few are going to jump on anyone that makes a statement outside the realm of their understanding. Maybe you should rename this forum the catholic trap!

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    I almost forgot, thanks to those who constructively contributed.

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    G. K. Chesterton wrote of Peter. His observation and analysis was that Peter truly DID, of course, show his weakness from time to time, but he ALWAYS came back, and when he did, he came back VERY strongly. His strength was the kind that had to be developed. And develop it did, just as Christ knew it would. THIS is what makes Peter "the Rock," and NOT his vascillations early on. Once he was fully committed, he was "all in," and I mean ALL in! Just as rocks the geologists study have to be developed and formed over great periods of time, we all, I think, are a lot like Peter, and our development takes time and experience and reflection. But if we DO commit ourselves fully ..... wow! What a difference that always makes to us!!! Peter's story, I think, is one of development INTO "the Rock," and not one of his being a rock first, and THEN Jesus picking him up to use him. All the disciples, it seems, needed lots of training and edification before they could do what Jesus knew they'd have to do. I think we're all like that.

    And also, Chesterton noted that when God seems to want someone to use, he doesn't look to the high and mighty, the overeducated or the ones who've written the most. He looks to the "common man," and with those, He has built what Christianity is today! The common man, when truly complete, is not concerned with all the allures of fame and fortune and power and things of that sort. He's only interested in the simple Truth, and THAT is what makes him so powerful, in the end. It's his humility and lack of aspirations, along with his simple willingness to be used, that makes him most suitable for the truly BIG things. Just as it was farm boys and carpenters and all sorts of common folk who turned the tide and saved the day at Normandy beach, so it was with the disciples, and with so many, many things this world has recorded. Humility and willingness, and a real and deep desire to KNOW makes them the most suitable and perfect subjects of what Jesus had to teach them, and the work that lay ahead of them. Simple, humble men don't seem to let their fears control them, like those who have "much more to lose" so often do. And yet, some of the finest men I've known have been very educated, accomplished and relatively "rich." But none of that controlled them, and they were guided by the exact same things that the disciples were - an unquenchable desire to KNOW and understand, and a good will toward their fellow men. Common men seem to adopt this sort of attitude more easily than many if not most of the rich, though money never determines a man's inner content and worth.

    The story of the Prodigal is one of the most inspiring stories in the Bible. Perhaps that's why nearly everyone knows it?

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    Look at David
    Look at Peter
    God/Jesus picked the best
    Not because they were the best men
    But because they were the best in an ultimate sense.
    We see the outside
    God/Jesus see the whole picture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Peter was an awesome guy with lots of guts and far from shaky. Peter was in the "inner circle"--one of Jesus' best friends. He got out of the boat to walk with Jesus on the water. He defended Jesus with his sword. He followed Jesus, putting himself in danger, after he had been arrested. Then there are all the questions Peter asked of Jesus and comments he made that possibly no one else dared even though they might have wanted too.

    We focus too much on him denying Jesus to see the bigger picture. There's also a tendency of some Protestants to dismiss Peter and Mary as trivial because we do not hold the Roman Catholic beliefs. But the biblical picture is that both of these individuals were remarkable and full of faith.
    This saved me a bunch of typing! Peter was for from shaky.

    Was Peter the head elder of the early church? I fill like he was. Is Jeuses the head of the church? I know he is.
    when the dust settles and the smoke clears all that matters is I hear the words " well done my good and faithfully servant "

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    I agree that Peter grew into a mighty man of God and that God chose him to do great things, but none of which could classify him The Rock.
    Is the only reason so many consider him the rock because of him being the first deciple? or does it hang completely on verse 18 and Jesus calling him Peter? So far I haven't found any scripture suggesting this. Just multiple scriptures suggesting the Rhema word in old and new testament.

    ps18:2
    The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my shield, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rl69 View Post
    This saved me a bunch of typing! Peter was for from shaky.

    Was Peter the head elder of the early church? I fill like he was. Is Jeuses the head of the church? I know he is.
    I really don't think the NT shows that there was one head elder.

    The Apostles planted churches and placed people in charge of them while they moved. The Apostles retained a certain level of authority as people in "the know." James (not John's brother) also had an esteemed position within the early Church.

    Then there was Paul who solidified Church doctrine and planted churches even though he was a late-comer (a vital late comer). The authority of Paul's epistles was acknowledged by Peter. Paul even challenged Peter on one occasion. But neither Apostles was subjected to the other's authority.

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    [Note: The following entry is something I wrote up about the Twelve Apostles a few years ago for a personal study of mine. I hope you are all able to enjoy it.]

    Introduction

    The twelve apostles have long held a great degree of interest for Christians, as well they should, as the foremost human leaders set in place after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Besides the account in the Bible, many (probably) spurious accounts have been written about, legends of their travels far and wide to the ends of the earth. Fake gospels have been written using the twelve apostles as supposed inspiration. As the first paper in a series of papers on the twelve apostles (actually, we will look at thirteen, and give some information on a fourteenth person), this paper seeks to detail such matters as the ranking of the twelve apostles, the phenomenon of the replacement apostles, the instruction of the apostles, and the role and authority of the apostles. Furthermore, we will look at the qualifications of the apostles and determine why there have been no genuine apostles since the death of John. First, though, we will look at the apostles in general.

    Meaning of Apostle

    The word apostle, which we today (thanks to the twelve) consider to be a position of high authority, comes from the Greek word (transliterated, that is apostolos), which means delegate or ambassador, or an official messenger. To some extent, as ambassadors for Christ, we are all apostles in a general sense. However, as a specific title, the official messengers from God were the twelve sent out by Christ. As will be seen later on the paper, the qualifications to be an apostle cannot be met now, and hence there are no more apostles. This, however, does not stop people from claiming the title of apostle. However, like most of the Christian titles (and this is truly ironic), their actual meaning reflects service to man and the supremacy of God, in stark contrast to the arrogant pride of most people who would appropriate the titles to themselves. After all, Paul was an apostle, and he called himself a slave of Christ. Truly we are all the same. It is important, though, before we look at the Twelve Apostles in specific, that they were not trying to appropriate a lordly title to themselves, but were rather given a title by Christ and by the church that reflected their service and mission. And, for the most part, these men lived up to the high expectations of their calling. We can only hope to do the same ourselves in this time, even if we call ourselves nothing more than brethren.

    It is important to note, however, that the apostles were special individuals in many ways. First of all, they knew Jesus Christ personally, before His public ministry. Some of them (like John and his brother James) are likely to have been Jesus’ earthly cousins. Others, like Peter and Andrew, were likely friends of the family. Some, like Bartholomew (or Nathanael) were friends with other apostles before they were called (in his case, Philip). Some of the apostles had previously been disciples of John the Baptist, who was himself a member of the priestly class and a cousin of Jesus Christ’s. John himself, from his Gospel, was apparently personally acquainted with members of the high priestly line. The twelve apostles were not entirely obscure people. As Jesus called them personally, he must have been acquainted with them in some way, even if we do not know exactly how in all cases.

    Ranking of the Twelve Apostles

    Like most human beings (and this author personally), the twelve apostles were (while carnal) heavily focused on political positions, seeking to increase their status among the apostles. Furthermore, the Bible reflects that there were several divisions among the apostles. While, with certain exceptions, exact ranking is impossible, the twelve apostles were clearly ranked in sub-groups. We will discuss the three ranks among the apostles, as well as the inner 3. However, first, before we go into that, we will discuss the political squabbles of the apostles, which is of great value to us today, as we resemble the pre-conversion apostles more often (in issues of politics) than the post-conversion apostles. I say this to our shame, both individually and collectively.

    Struggles For Preeminence

    The twelve disciples, during their period of learning at the foot of Jesus Christ, were constantly angling for position. While it may be unbelievable that a group of devoted, religious people would waste time they could be learning from God Himself in the flesh arguing about their ranking among the apostles, that is what they did. From this vantage point, it is all too believable. In this section we will look at the ubiquity of the struggles for position between the twelve. Also, we will look at their attempts to use outside individuals to aid their cause. Finally, we will look at what Christ had to say about position within the twelve, and by extension to the rest of us as well.

    The struggles for position among the apostles are common in the Gospels. For example, in Matthew 18:1, Mark 9:33-34, and Luke 9:46, the apostles asked Christ who was the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven, expecting Christ to say one of them. First they had disputed the matter among themselves, probably very heatedly. Not learning from that gentle rebuff, the disciples tried again. At the last supper (in Luke 22:24), on the night Jesus was taken for crucifixion, the twelve argued about which of them was the greatest. This must have greatly distressed Jesus Christ, and his reply was a pointed one to us today, as well as to the apostles. The disciples (in Luke 9:49) even forbade others to preach about Christ because it encroached on their territory, which Jesus Christ rebuked them for doing. It is a shame that the twelve were unable to focus on the heavenly and were instead focused on earthly position. It is likewise a shame when that happens to us, since we should know better.

    The disciples even occasionally used outside sources to influence Jesus Christ to consider them as greater than the other apostles. One particularly devious attempt is worthy of a close look. Matthew 20:28 shows how John and James the sons of Zebedee used their mother (possibly Jesus’ maternal aunt) to influence Jesus to choose them in positions of high authority, presumably the #1 and #2 spots in the kingdom (his right and left hand). This, quite naturally, infuriated the other disciples, probably because they did not think of the idea first. Of course, when Jesus corrected the apostles he corrected them all.

    Jesus’ corrections to the disciples concerning their political rivalry generally took three forms. One form is his telling them who they should model themselves after—humble and teachable little children. That must have been particularly stinging. A second way Jesus dealt with the squabbles about preeminence was to focus on the duties of service that leaders had rather than their prerogatives of office. This is too easily neglected today. Finally, the third way in which Jesus Christ dealt with their political ambitions was to explicitly tell them they were not to act as the world’s rulers acted. This is a point important enough for its own paper (entitled “Christ, Inc.” which is forthcoming), but must be mentioned here because too often religious leaders act very much like worldly ones. Christ gave us a better example to follow than that of ruthless CEO’s or emperors.

    Three Groups of Apostles

    The apostles themselves were linked in three groups in the various accounts they are listed. In the four listings of the apostles, the same four apostles appear in each of the three groups. This is noteworthy, and though the Bible does not say it explicitly, it appears that this marks a noted ranking within the apostles. It would be interesting to do a statistical analysis to see how often the disciples (other than Judas) from the last ranking are mentioned by name in the Bible. I would suspect that it is not often, but such research could wait until the future (along with many other such interesting musings). Following is a chart that shows the listing of the apostles in their groupings before we briefly discuss each grouping:

    Rank of Apostle Matthew 10:2-4 Mark 3:16-19 Luke 6:14-16 Acts 1:13
    1 Simon Peter Simon Peter Simon Peter Simon Peter
    2 Andrew James Andrew John
    3 James John James James
    4 John Andrew John Andrew
    5 Philip Philip Philip Philip
    6 Bartholomew Bartholomew Bartholomew Thomas
    7 Thomas Matthew Matthew Bartholomew
    8 Matthew Thomas Thomas Matthew
    9 James (of Alphaeus) James (of Alphaeus) James (of Alphaeus) James (of Alphaeus)
    10 Thaddadeus (Judas of James) Thaddadeus (Judas of James) Simon (the Zealot) Simon (the Zealot)
    11 Simon (the Canaanean) Simon (the Cananaaean) Judas of James (Thaddadeus) Judas of James (Thaddadeus)
    12 Judas Iscariot Judas Iscariot Judas Iscariot (no one)
    The first quartet of apostles consists of Simon Peter, John, James, and Andrew. Here we have two sets of brothers, from families probably very close to Christ’s. Determining the ranking of these disciples is not an unambiguous task. Three of the disciples were part of the select grouping (to be discussed shortly), and hence Simon Peter, John, and James form the undisputed top 3. Judging from a point system, it is clear that Peter was the chief of the twelve. A cursory look at the gospels will demonstrate his leadership ambitions. He is constantly striving to the top of the pack. James appears to be second, due to his prominence in the early church (he is mentioned with Peter as a major leader of the Church in its early times). John, the longest living apostle, appears to be the third ranking apostle, though Jesus seems to have loved him a great deal due to his mild personality (but see Luke 9:51-54 for evidence of his fiery temper). Andrew, a very attentive apostle, ranks fourth, since he was not invited to any of the special events that the other three were. However, he must be considered an important apostle due to his role in bringing the Gospel to others.

    The second group of apostles is made up of those apostles who were occasionally vital, but who were not as important as the first grouping. As Philip leads all four lists, he appears to have the fifth rank among apostles, and is often grouped with Bartholomew. Bartholomew (or Nathanael) is second in three lists and third in one, and so therefore he would appear to be sixth among disciples. Thomas appears to have a slight edge over Matthew for the seventh spot, which would make Matthew (barely) the eight apostle. Considering the importance of these apostles, one of whom wrote a Gospel, these were still very important apostles, even if not as notable as the first four.

    The third group of apostles, with one dark exception, is rather obscure. As James (of Alphaeus) leads all of the lists, he would appear to be the ninth ranking apostle. Thaddeus (or Judas of James) and Simon (the Zealot), are both second and third on two lists. Since Luke records the same order on both of his lists, we will give the tiebreaker to Thaddaeus for the tenth position, and place Simon (the Zealot) in the eleventh position. There is, however, no dispute as to the twelfth position, which falls to Judas Iscariot. After his betrayal of Jesus and his suicide, he was replaced by Matthias, who will be discussed later as a replacement apostle. Among the apostles of the third rank only Judas is prominent, and he is proof that not all fame is good.

    Provisional Ranking of the Apostles:

    1. Simon Peter

    2. James

    3. John

    4. Andrew

    5. Philip

    6. Bartholomew (Nathanael)

    7. Thomas

    8. Matthew

    9. James (of Alphaeus)

    10. Thaddaeus (or Judas of James)

    11. Simon (the Zealot)

    12. Judas Iscariot (and then Matthias)

    Special Apostolic Groupings

    While it is impossible at this long remove, given the evidence in the Gospels, to determine the cliques within the twelve, there is one special grouping that Jesus Christ recognized as elite within the twelve, and that went with him on special missions. First, we will look at the special treatment of these three disciples (Peter, James, and John) and then we will look at the likely results this treatment had on the rest of the twelve concerning the political rivalries among them.

    Peter, James, and John were present at all of the major recorded happenings during Jesus’ ministry. Whenever Jesus needed a smaller group to go along with him some place, it was these three that went. The first time we see these disciples as a trio is when Jesus Christ resurrected Jarius’ daughter (recorded in Matthew 9:18-26, Mark 5:21-43, and Luke 8:40-56). It is unclear why at this early moment in His ministry that only those three were permitted, but it is likely that already they had shown leadership qualities. It is possible that there was a lack of room in Jarius’ house for the entire group to come in, but it is highly revealing that these three were chosen apart from close to the beginning. The next incident where these three apostles are separated from the pack is during the transfirguration (described in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:1-13, Luke 9:27-36, and 2 Peter 1:16-18). Here Peter, James, and John were given a special vision, presumably a prophetic one, showing Elijah and Moses resurrected. Finally, the three were present at the dramatic and disheartening prayer in the Gethsemane when Jesus was taken prisoner by an armed guard (recorded in Matthew 26:36-36, Mark 14:32-42, Luke 22:39-46, and John 16:1-17:26). Apparently John was less sleepy than the other two because his memory of the prayer was better than those of other witnesses. Therefore, it appears obvious that Jesus marked these three apostles as separate and special even among the twelve. This undoubtedly had major results among the twelve.

    Given the intense competition between the twelve for leadership roles and the betrayal of Jesus by Judas, it appears likely that the choosing of Peter, James, and John as special had serious consequences. First, it appears that there were at least three groups among the disciples. There were those who supported Peter, those who supported James and John (probably made up of James and John), and those who, like Judas, rankled under the favoritism. As Judas was the treasurer of the group, it seems likely that he considered himself a person of great ability and had financial acumen (especially since he was chosen as the treasurer over a known, and presumably capable, tax collector, Matthew). Quite possibly his frustrated ambition was a major factor in his betrayal of Jesus Christ, besides his desire for Christ’s kingdom to be set up on earth through miraculous action against the Romans. It also is quite possible that James and John, recognized leaders though marginalized in the twelve, used their mother to gain additional leverage given their unpopularity among the other apostles (see Matthew 20:20-28, Mark 10:35-45). All of this is conjecture, though given the account in the Gospels, at least it is plausible conjecture.

    The Replacement Apostles

    After the suicide of Judas, the remaining eleven apostles were faced with the need to replace him. Among the other followers of Jesus (presumably among the 500 personal witnesses of his resurrection, the 120 at the first Pentecost, and the seventy who went out preaching the Gospel), two were considered as replacements for Judas. One was Matthias, and the other was Barsabas Justus. Besides their mention in the first chapter of Acts, nothing else is known of them. However, the two must have been disciples from the beginning, given the qualifications of a disciple (to be shown later). Between these two, Matthias was chosen, and so he took the place of Judas Iscariot as an apostle. However, in order for this to occur there must have been people capable of stepping in at a moment’s notice, which would seem to indicate some kind of advanced training for leadership beyond the twelve, at least to the seventy, that the Bible does not record.

    Training of the Apostles

    The training of the apostles seems to have been a rather intensive, involving at least four different components. Elements of this training were given to others besides the twelve, since obviously some were considered qualified to step into the place of Judas Iscariot. The first element of Jesus’ training was public instruction, what would amount to preaching. Also, there was private instruction, either from parables or in a question and answer format. There must have been some kind of textual study as well, or at least the review of different scriptures from the law and prophets, though the apostles seem somewhat ignorant of the traditions of the rabbis, probably to their credit. They were people of the land, after all. Fourth, there was the ability to learn from seeing the example of Jesus Christ, which is a great gift that we can gain mainly from reading and seeking to follow what the Bible instructs (through His grace and the agency of His Holy Spirit). Finally, there was the opportunity to learn through practice, and through instructing others. We will now look at how the apostles were able to learn from these methods and how others besides the twelve would have learned as well through these means in more limited ways.

    The first way the apostles learned was through Christ’s public instruction. Included among this is the Sermon on the Mount, and the slightly different Sermon on the Plain, which may represent two deliveries of the same sort of sermon in two different locations to two different audiences. There also would have been other discourses, such as in the synagogues and to the crowds of people who flocked after Jesus Christ. Much of what was taught in these public discourses would have been relatively obscure, but a great deal of it would have been readily accessible to the crowds that followed Him, understanding that He spoke a message of righteousness and social justice that the elite preachers of the Pharisees and the Saduccees did not. It was the public instruction that drew so many people to follow Christ in the beginning.

    The private instruction was given mainly, though not exclusively, to the twelve. It included the parables, and explanation of the parables, given to the apostles, as well as their own private questions to Him. It also included the semi-public questioning by the scribes and Pharisees who sought to entrap Jesus. Finally, such private instruction also included the teaching of those secret disciples of Jesus, like Nicodemas, who came unannounced to learn from Jesus even as they publicly maintained a neutral stance towards Him. Through this private discussion and teaching disciples came to a greater understanding of the Gospel message and had their own personal questions answered. Obviously, personal conversation with Jesus Christ was a treasure to be prized.

    While the Bible does not explicitly show Jesus Christ opening up the scriptures (then in scroll form) and reviewing them with the disciples, it seems likely that the disciples had some form of scriptural instruction. This can be demonstrated in part by the various books of the NT. For example, Matthew extensively quotes OT prophecies in his gospel, meaning he probably learned them from Christ Himself. Also, the citations of OT scriptures in Peter’s early sermons, for example, would appear to indicate his learning them from Christ during the His earthly ministry. The Bible tells of Jesus Christ performing exegesis on a passage of Isaiah concerning the jubilee year, showing His knowledge of scripture. It only makes sense for Christ to have passed on that knowledge to the apostles.







    [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/22/sc...22sibling.html

  17. #17
    Super Moderator

    Preacher Jim's Avatar
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    Actually James the half brother of Jesus was head of the Jerusalem church.
    Now mark my words.
    THE CHURCH DEBATE HAS ENDED. IF THAT CHURCH FITS YOU AND YOU WORSHIP JESUS THERE IT IS RIGHT FOR YOU.
    THIS IS WARNING NUMBER 3 AND NORMALLY 3 STRIKES YOU OUT.
    Last edited by HATCH; 07-11-2017 at 08:29 AM. Reason: wanted to highlight something

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Jmort, perhaps another way of looking at the Apostles is their distinct spiritual gifts, as Paul talks about so often. The body of Christ being "fitly framed" (sometimes I love the KJV language) among the Apostles to build the Church.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    "But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. and Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo-na: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which art in heaven.
    And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mathew 16: 15-18)

    What Rock? The rock of the revelation of who Jesus really is. The Christ, the Son of the Living God.

    I won't debate or argue anything about Peter, He was an Apostle of the Jesus Christ. He was crucified, his soul is in Heaven, his body has returned to dust waiting for the mystical return of Jesus Christ, when the dead in Christ shall rise first. That means Peter is dead. He performed his role in the body to the best of his ability, he led many to Christ, His epistles still teach us today.

    My faith is not in Peter, or Paul or any other man. My faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Many men have helped me with my understanding, sometimes even by being a bad example. But the Man that I saw portrayed in the Bible, the life he lived, the sacrifice that He provided on the cross that my sins could be forgiven, the man that I met at an altar many years ago, Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God, that is where my faith is at.

    The reason that he was given the keys to the kingdom is because God the Father revealed unto him who Jesus was, and is today. When we can truly know by revelation from God the Father who Jesus is (not just a head knowledge or an understanding of something somebody said or wrote) but a communion with the Spirit of God that will lead us into all truth, then we too will be able to bind and loose on earth and in heaven according to our individual faith.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks 454, very good points indeed.

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