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Thread: The Truth about Glocks and Cast

  1. #81
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotman View Post
    ok you guys that have them what kind of groups do you get at 25yds AND try to be honest. I have shot 4 different guns and none will shoot with a colt or kimber and even a 220 sig will out shoot them rick
    shot,
    I regularly shoot High Master during qualifications with my dept. Scores are 492 or higher (out of 500) on a 50-rd. course with the IL. PTI target. (10-ring is a little smaller than a 3x5 index card.) Of the 50 shots 12 of them are fired from the 25 yard line. To be honest I miss as much at 15 as I do at 25. (Lack of focus on my part, I need to do better...)

    Another anecdote - My best friend from High School and my shooting mentor's son who was into guns (imagine how we became friends?) was one of two people whom I respected as a shot good enough to regularly beat me. He has moved away, but came back a few years ago and we went to the range. He had just acquired a nice S&W 745 and I had my Glock 21. (Both 45ACPs.) We went to the back-yard range and started shooting, and it became apparent I was out-shooting him pretty regularly. (We were shooting the same ammo.) We traded guns, and both of us could shoot the Glock 21 better than the 745. I will admit that although all Glocks are pretty accurate, there is something about the 45s that they seem to naturally shoot more accurately. They are the only Glocks with OCTAGONAL rather than HEXAGONAL rifling, so it may be the form of the rifling...

    All that said, I'll admit that I ALWAYS shoot revolvers better than autos. Regardless of brand or caliber. (My qualification scores when we carried revolvers was anywhere between 495 & 500 - on average 5-10 points higher than when I shoot any auto.)

    Also, I do have some autos that will out-shoot my Glocks, but not by much. My most-accurate auto (and the only one that matches the accuracy of the revolvers) is my Walther P88C. It regularly chews a hole a little larger than a silver dollar at 25 yards with a couple mags of 9mm. My Glocks don't match that, but neither do any of the Kimbers or Colts or Sigs I've got or shot.

    Before Glocks existed, I was a 1911 man. (Back then, there were no Kimbers -other than rifles- or any other custom-from-factory 1911s. You shot a Colt or Springfield Armory, and they were pretty much like the commercial or military models that had been made since the 1920s... To get anything like a Kimber you had to pay $2000 to a custom 'smith and turn over your Colt and wait 12 months. Therefore, all of my 1911s are and were military or commercial models without the bells and whistles.) When I started toying with the Glock (and other non-1911 autos) I couldn't shoot them anywhere near as well as a 1911. When I finally decided the Glock had some great qualities and would be what I would switch to when our department went to autos, I started shooting it as religiously as my 1911s and revolvers. It was only after near-daily shooting and dry-firing for 6 months that I adapted to the Glock's trigger pull and started shooting it well. One other thing I changed was the sights. Big, blocky, plastic sights do not work well for me. (They were designed to be quick-pick-up combat sights, but I prefer something with more precision.) I changed them out to a set of Novaks, and that picked up about 15 points on my qualification score.

    Glocks are VERY inherently accurate, but they're trigger has a unique feel that DEMANDS getting used to and adapting to, or it's very difficult to shoot them well. But, given the commitment to time and practice, they can be shot as well as any other pistol out to 100-150 yards.
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  2. #82
    Boolit Grand Master Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    My tiny Glock 26 shot wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than the full size Beretta 92FS that replaced it after the Government confiscated the Glock, don't make sense, but thats the way it was.

    I have been seriously thinking about getting back into Glocks, especially since those neato green and sand coloured ones came out
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  3. #83
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    Hey Mick! Mic here!

    Yeah I forgot to mention above that, the other Glock that shoots accurately waaaaaaay out of proportion to what it SHOULD be capable of, is the G-26. It's my #1 carry piece when I'm in plain clothes or off-duty. I carry a 15-rd G-19 magazine for a reload to the 11-rd mag I keep in it. (A 10-rd mag with a Pierce +1 finger-groove baseplate extension.) 27 rounds in a very compact pistol is not bad at all, and combined with the accuracy and some decent ammo, it's giving up virtually nothing to a larger alternative.

    You should definitely think about one. I love their simplicity, reliability, and durability.
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


    E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.

  4. #84
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    I prefer my 5 shot .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog. It is light, small, reliable and effiecient. With a soft lead HP boolit over 5.5 gr of Unique I trust it with my life as it is my carry gun. With a pair of speedloaders in my right pocket and that revolver on my belt I do not feel undergunned.

    As far as having only 5 shots.....I have been in 5 gunfights during the 20 years I carried a gun for the NYCPD and only during one gunfight did I have to shoot more than three shots. That one was a barricaded BG situation and I fired over 40 rounds over a 10 minute period of time until enuf troops arrived to quell the situation.

    During my day most cops never carried more than 12 extra rounds on their belts. I carried 4 speedloaders with 6 rounds apiece and a leather magazine case for a double column 9 mm. I had a plastic strip inside the case that covered the front, bottom and rear and I placed another 18 rounds of .38 Spl's over the strip. When I needed to get to the round I would pull up the ends of the strip a mite and take out how many rounds I wanted. It was effiecient, cheap and below the radar.

    I also carried a NY Reload on my left ankle. I never had to use it but it was nice to have.
    Pax Nobiscum Dan (Crash) Corrigan

    Currently casting, reloading and shooting: 223 Rem, 6.5x55 Sweede, 30 Carbine, 30-06 Springfield, 30-30 WCF, 303 Brit., 7.62x39, 7.92x57 Mauser, .32 Long, 32 H&R Mag, 327 Fed Mag, 380 ACP. 9x19, 38 Spcl, 357 Mag, 38-55 Win, 41 Mag, 44 Spcl., 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 454 Casull, 457 RB for ROA and 50-90 Sharps. Shooting .22 LR & 12 Gauge seldom and buying ammo for same.

  5. #85
    Boolit Grand Master Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Years of inconvienience carrying all that ammo paid back in one situation. People used to laugh at me when I was at work, hardly anyone carried spare rounds, When I was escorting prisoners I always carried two speedeloaders (my boss wouldn't let me carry any more and I only managed to get him to approve speedloaders as I bull%$itted him about being disabled by being short one finger and having troube. I also carried a 6 round dump pouch (he never said anything about dump pouches ) on my duty belt and a 50 round box of ammo, along with tools and a small stout cleaning rod (for clearing squibs) in my small pack under the seat.

    When I was the security manager/deputy warden of jails, I used to have guns everywhere and gas and gasmasks laid on. The moment I had a problem, I would issue everything and then get on the phone to HQ, requesting a re-sup of gas and ammo (we were 120miles from HQ). I always said, I'd rather have the gear and not need it than have not the gear and need it. As it turned out I never needed it, but there would have been a helluva fireworks show if my negotiating skills didn't carry the day.

    I've just picked up a 1911 Norinco, which is surprisingly accurate and another friend who was going to customise his 1911 but didn't gave me a supply of King's (I think) beavertail, trigger, mag funnel, etc, etc. I might get a Glock as well and do a comparo between the three (92FS) and end up with the customised 1911 and the one I prefer out of the 92FS/Glock for military shooting.
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  6. #86
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm rather new to this forum but would like to say that the information presented here makes sense. I'm about to start making my own for Glock model 23 .40 cal w/ Wolf barrel because of leading issue with poly rifling. Thanks!

  7. #87
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    I have a glock 17 for a number of years and all the ammo I have put through it is cast and sized to 357 as that size shot better than smaller diameter bullets. I have put a couple hundred winchester white box ammo through it but probably 4 or 5 thousand cast ones. I do not get leading but I do clean my gun every time I shoot it. I find that my cast loads shoot as well as the pistol shoots FMJ winchester ammo

  8. #88
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    I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!

    I believe it was primarily an ammo problem, but don't really know as I never shot anything other than jacketed out of it after cleaning that mess out.

  9. #89
    Boolit Grand Master Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post
    I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!

    I believe it was primarily an ammo problem, but don't really know as I never shot anything other than jacketed out of it after cleaning that mess out.

    We are only allowed to use our handguns at teh range (apart from a few security guards, etc) and most ranges only allow lead, sooooo most of the Glock usage in Australia is with lead boolits. They forgot to tell us what a problem lead boolits were and we never really noticed that there was a prob.
    "I'll help you down the trail and proud to!" Rooster Cogburn.

    "Slap some bacon on a biscuit and let's go! We're burnin' daylight! " - Will Anderson (John Wayne) "The Cowboys."

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    Psycholigist to Sniper; 'What did you feel when you shot the felon Sargeant?'
    Sniper to Psycholigist; 'Recoil Ma'am.'

    From my Irish Ancestors: "You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was."

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    [QUOTE=Four Fingers of Death;1153165]We are only allowed to use our handguns at teh range (apart from a few security guards, etc) and most ranges only allow lead, sooooo most of the Glock usage in Australia is with lead boolits. They forgot to tell us what a problem lead boolits were and we never really noticed that there was a prob.[/QUOTE

    As I said I think it was an issue with the ammo. shortly after I bought that stuff one could not find it anywhere. I think the problem was primarily with the alloy they used, but after the LONG cleaning session I wasn't going to chance it again.

    Back then there was no talk of lead or jacketed bullet use issues in the Glocks. I just decided not to do that again.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post
    I bought a Glock 10mm about 1991 and bought some Federal lead ammo to test fire it with. Well I sure didn't like what I could not see after 50 Rds. of that, just one gooey mess!
    10mm is a beast all to itself, much less lead in a poly barrel..
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  12. #92
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    Glad to see this. It's already encouraged me when it comes to shooting out of my glock 23! Thanks for all the great discussion.
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  13. #93
    I ran 1000 lead bullets in my glock 22 before i heard of the lead in glock tale, got spooked and got 2 packs with frontier bullets (4000) will run out of them this spring, and i'm going for a mold, is the lee tc 6 banger a good bullet ?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogsir View Post
    is the lee tc 6 banger a good bullet ?
    Yep. It is.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    Years ago I called Glock for another reason. I'm a armorer and asked if I could shoot lead in my Glock. After a few minutes of "Glock will not warranty a gun that has shot reloads". I asked If I can find a factory loaded 40 S&W with cast lead boolits can I shoot them in my gun. He said yes. I shot USPSA and shot 10s of 1000s of lead in my G24. 20,000 in one year. Most were the Lee 170 TL, had no problem with them. And that was back before they lowered the major power factor.
    161

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    Honestly many of those off the shelf bullets are not suited to ANY high pressure high intensity pistol cartridge, their alloy is too soft, and their lube just plain sucks. Some I tried in 45 acp would lead a Clark 1911 bbl heavily if loaded with more than 4.0 of bullseye.

    Bill
    That makes sense. I used to handload for my 38 Revolvers using a store brand semi wadcutter of unknown origin, pre lubed and sized. These worked fine in every revolver I tried them in, but fact is I had no idea what the alloy was or what the lube was, they were dirt cheap and worked okay so I never gave it much thought.

    The Polygonal bore may work just fine with a quality hard cast boolit, but be the accident waiting to happen that Glock figured it to be if the boolit were not of a good quality alloy or not properly lubed.

    With the loose service chamber and unsupported head the cases won't take a whole lot of extra pressure.

  17. #97
    I slugged my g22 barrel today, and it seems to be so close to 402 that i say its 402, my question now is: do i need a 403 bullet or do the glock barrel sqeese out the bullet so that the 401 fits ? what do the experienced glock .40 guys use ? i had no leading with the 401 in 18 brinell. mut the max speed used was 960fps. looking for some tips, since i want this gun to run ipsc major factor.
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  18. #98
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    Polygonal Rifling.

    I am coming to this discussion rather late but I feel I have some relavent points to make.

    First: Glocks don't have what is traditionally known as Polygonal Rifling.

    Polygonal Rifling is the Metford style discussed at the begining of this thread. It was developed by the British (probably a guy named Metford) specifically for large caliber rifles where leading was a problem due to heavy charges of Cordite. This type of rifling has no sharp edges to attract lead deposits. It is essentially a twisted smooth bore.

    My first encounter with this type of rifling was in 1978 when the H&K PS9 pistols first came out. It had rifling that looked like a pentagon with radiuses instead of points for the corners. IE:Metford style

    My comment to the owner of the gun shop was " oh this is new"

    He then went to the back room and produced a beautiful Holland and Holland Double Rifle in .500NE worth $25K back then, and stuck the barrels up in my face. Low and behold it had the same style rifling as the PS9. It was made in 1902.

    He said "in guns,,, nothing is new".

    Glock's have rifling that has definate lands and grooves, except the lands are radiused instead of having square edges. Glock calls this "polygonal". I and many others call it "mis named", and mis leading. This type of rifling does not grip soft lead bullets very well and if ran too fast can "strip the rifling" which leads to leading. It is optimized for jacketed bullets.

    Glocks also lead because of several factors which have already been discussed above, and none of them have anything to do with the rifling's style. Undersized, Hard, and Bevel Based Bullets which don't bump up, and hot loads are the main reasons for this type of leading. This is true of any type of leading in guns using cast boolits, now isn't it?.

    Glocks position on reloads is the same as all other manufacturers. Glocks are utilitarian tools, they are the Vaughn Claw Hammer of guns, and they are made to function perfectly with a variety of factory loaded ammo. They don't care if your reloads don't work, they tell you not to do it. That said, we all do, do it.

    If your gun blows up from leading maybe you should have looked down the barrel a little sooner. I would think you would notice the recoil increasing from the lead buildup. Maybe a jacketed bullet in every magazine would help. They will remove all leading instantly.

    But really, isn't paying attention to what you are doing, and understanding the risks probably going to keep you out of trouble more than anything else. And this is true of all kinds of things now isn't it?

    I closing, my .02 on this subject is, that Glock barrels lead just as much as anyother kind of barrel and for the exact same reasons.

    "nothing is new in guns"

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 03-27-2011 at 04:09 PM.

  19. #99
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    rogsir: I'd run Xtreme plated bullets which won't mind being ran that fast or even faster. You're on the edge with cast boolits at that speed.

    If you have no leading at .401 then the fit is good. But as you increase speed the pressure goes higher and the possibility of blowby increases. Blow by is the major cause of leading and as the speeds increase that is where the problem of leading starts.

    You have to creep up the max speed for your situation. Or you can completely eliminate the problem by using gas checks or the easier way is to just buy Plated Bullets.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-17-2011 at 11:40 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I am coming to this discussion rather late but I feel I have some relavent points to make.

    First: Glocks don't have what is traditionally known as Polygonal Rifling.

    Polygonal Rifling is the Metford style discussed at the begining of this thread. It was developed by the British (probably a guy named Metford) specifically for large caliber rifles where leading was a problem due to heavy charges of Cordite. This type of rifling has no sharp edges to attract lead deposits. It is essentially a twisted smooth bore.


    Randy
    Pretty much correct except Metford rifling predates Cordite or any other smokeless propellent.
    The original .303 cartridge used a compressed cylinder of Black Powder, the shape of the cylinder allowed the powder to burn in much the same manner as a solid rocket motor only much faster, the cylinder stayed in the case of course. This gave a power curve similar to progressive burning smokeless powders.
    When Cordite was developed they found the higher temperatures burned out the throats and eroded the bores of Metford style barrels very quickly. This resulted in development of the Enfield pattern rifling with equal width lands and grooves and deep grooves to help withstand erosion.
    Remington uses a similar bore for its sniper rifles these days to allow longer accurate bore life.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check