The Truth about Glocks and Cast

[FergusonTO35]

I still think the .40 is loaded up to the max from the factory, and by reloaders. Most .40 handguns are adaptations of existing 9mm's meaning thinner barrels. Add in dirty bores, temperature swings, shorter rounds from repeated chamberings, and its easy to see how pressures can jump and and kb's happen. If the ammo was loaded down a bit, say to an average of 30k or so, most of these problems could be avoided.

[6bg6ga]

Getting back to the thread title "The truth about Glocks and cast"

I have loaded hundreds of rounds and shot them in my model 23 40 cal. As with ANY reloading I belive that proper fitting of the bullet to the barrel is necessary. Poor fitting can result in excessive leading and possibly having an incident. Upon inspection of the barrel I had NO leading and no ill effects as a result of leading. Proper crimp is a necessity when reloading this round in my opinion simply because without enough crimp the bullet can move backward inside the case resulting in very increased pressures and the result can be a boom. Have see a model 23 that was blown up as a result of jacketed bullets NOT being crimped enough.

Getting back to cast again.... I believe based on MY experience that cast can be shot in a Glock IF the bullet is fitted correctly and if the bullet is crimped properly and if loads are NOT a maximum.

[Love Life]

Why shouldn't loads be maximum?

[FergusonTO35]

I'm not a fan of max loads because there is such a slim margin of error with them. Also, every other variable can cause pressure to go up. I think the gains are tiny compared to the risks. Every gun I own shoots best with loads significantly under the max, and I do too.

[6bg6ga]

Why shouldn't loads be maximum?

I never start out loading ANY caliber at maximum. I start out below max and check for signs of pressure and then work up from there.
The 40 in MY opinion is a finikey caliber that demands strict attention and any bullet set back increases pressure above maximums and generally causes a Glock for example to blow up. I have see the result of improper crimping and bullet set back. This is one reason why I don't skimp when it comes to crimping bullets while reloading.


I seriously doubt that factory loads are at max but this is something that needs to be checked out.

[garym1a2]

I never see the need for max loads. My carry loads are factory loaded gold dots. My practice loads are very light so the recoil is less than most 9mm loads. Since most of my shooting is for USPSA in production class I can load to minor power factors and get a nice shooting accurate gun. Where speed is the name of the game recoil slows you down. Plus lighter loads are much easier on the gun. Its not like shooting the rifle where you want max velocity so you get best preformance at distance.
Plus when loading light a keg of bullseye lasts forever. I get a good 1600 rounds per pound of powder.

Why shouldn't loads be maximum?

[Love Life]

In conclusion- Nobody has a legit reason for not using max loads. Just personal preference.

Max loads are safe, just work up to them. I don't know why boolit setback is always such an issue. There is a reason crimp dies are made.

That out of the way, yes, I agree that accuracy and function are both found well before the max load.

[6bg6ga]

I'm going to question max loads...

I have opened up loading manuals from many years ago that have different loads listed as max than from todays max loads.


So, I would error on the side of caution here and start below the listed maximum loads and question max loads out of some of the older reloading manuals.

[snuffy]

I never start out loading ANY caliber at maximum. I start out below max and check for signs of pressure and then work up from there.
The 40 in MY opinion is a finicky caliber that demands strict attention and any bullet set back increases pressure above maximums and generally causes a Glock for example to blow up. I have see the result of improper crimping and bullet set back. This is one reason why I don't skimp when it comes to crimping bullets while reloading.


I seriously doubt that factory loads are at max but this is something that needs to be checked out.

Getting back to the thread title "The truth about Glocks and cast"

I have loaded hundreds of rounds and shot them in my model 23 40 cal. As with ANY reloading I belive that proper fitting of the bullet to the barrel is necessary. Poor fitting can result in excessive leading and possibly having an incident. Upon inspection of the barrel I had NO leading and no ill effects as a result of leading. Proper crimp is a necessity when reloading this round in my opinion simply because without enough crimp the bullet can move backward inside the case resulting in very increased pressures and the result can be a boom. Have see a model 23 that was blown up as a result of jacketed bullets NOT being crimped enough.

Getting back to cast again.... I believe based on MY experience that cast can be shot in a Glock IF the bullet is fitted correctly and if the bullet is crimped properly and if loads are NOT a maximum.

Relying on crimp to hold any bullet/boolit is risky business. Semi-auto brass can't be crimped enough to hold an otherwise loose boolit without issues with headspace being too short. The crimp is simply to remove the belling and a slight bit more to bite into the boolit. Ever wonder why most semi-auto bullets don't have a cannelure? They rely on bullet pull to hold onto the projectile. If your sizer does not size the brass small enough,,-- or your expander expands too big, you'll end up with low bullet-pull. IN OTHER WORDS- loose bullets! Bullet pull is an interference fit, .002 to .003 is what is needed to really hold onto the bullet. Making up for low bullet pull by overcrimping can/will result in making it even looser.

quote- I seriously doubt that factory loads are at max but this is something that needs to be checked out. quote Why in the world would an ammo factory put out wimpy loads? Of course they are max loads. There are some reduced recoil loads for shotgun and rifle, some labeled youth loads, but for handguns, they're all max loads. Any reduced semi-auto handgun loads would result in failures to eject and function.

[TXGunNut]

In conclusion- Nobody has a legit reason for not using max loads. Just personal preference.

Max loads are safe, just work up to them. I don't know why boolit setback is always such an issue. There is a reason crimp dies are made.

That out of the way, yes, I agree that accuracy and function are both found well before the max load.

The 40 S&W is a special case when dealing with max loads. With the powders I'm familiar with max loads are very little more than starting loads, sometimes they're the same. The 40 S&W is by design a high pressure cartridge and guns like the Glock are built to handle them. In most cases I'm happy well short of max loads but the 40 is an exception, others are the 22-250 and the 44 mag, IMHO.

[yondering]

Of course they are max loads. There are some reduced recoil loads for shotgun and rifle, some labeled youth loads, but for handguns, they're all max loads. Any reduced semi-auto handgun loads would result in failures to eject and function.

This makes me wonder if you've fired and measured very much factory ammo.

Factory ammo, by and large, is most definitely NOT max loads, because it has to function safely in every firearm out there. Completely different than working up a max load in your gun, that may or may not be safe in other guns.

[snuffy]

This makes me wonder if you've fired and measured very much factory ammo.

Factory ammo, by and large, is most definitely NOT max loads, because it has to function safely in every firearm out there. Completely different than working up a max load in your gun, that may or may not be safe in other guns.

NO! I haven't. Why would I BUY factory loads when I can load better ammo myself. AND a lot cheaper too.

IF you're talking about revolver ammo, some of it has to be loaded light to accommodate the older guns chambered for certain rounds like 45 colt, 38 special and others. Generally semi-auto pistols are of modern construction and able to handle max loads without problems.

The very idea of a ammo factory selling sub-max ammo just does not make any sense. You don't know if it will used for defense use or just for cans in the back yard. It has to be as fast as it can be for any given self loader. A brand new-- lets say 9mm-- is stiff and needs max ammo to even function.

[yondering]

Nothing wrong with not buying factory ammo, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about on this subject.

[robertbank]

Snuffy in your post 349 you are correct in your first paragraph without question.

Your second paragraph is not true. What you can be sure of when buying factory 9MM ammunition is it is within SAMMI specifications for the cartridge or more properly put the cartridges do not exceed SAMMI specs. The exception would be +P+ ammunition for which there are no SAMMI specs for. There is for +P ammunition. That said there is no guarantee the ammunition is at the maximum power for SAMMI ; just that it is within specifications. The two are not the same thing.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, this thread is really taking a nosedive in the civility department. I will admit the biggest reason I don't like max loads in most rounds is because my nervous system just can't deal with much in the way of recoil, muzzle jump, noise. I have fought a major case of the flinch all my life and I'm not going to risk throwing away the hard earned progress I have made. Seriously, one cylinder full of .44 Magnum will set me back big time. So I just say no thanks to anything more difficult than .38 Special +P or 9mm.

Ok, need your feedback on this question. I have a Ruger SR9c that has served me pretty well. I also have a Glock 19 with Storm Lake barrel that is just awesome. I'm thinking about consolidating and selling/trading the SR9c on a Glock 26. The reasons are:

Commonality of parts, accessories, holsters, and mags

Same trigger pull and sight picture

Option to get a 1:16 twist barrel. I'm not impressed with the Ruger barrel or 1:10 twist in general with boolits.

Enduring factory and aftermarket support. In the time that the Glock has been around Ruger has introduced and discontinued an entire line of pistols (P series) and there are reports that factory parts and repairs for them are drying up. How do I know that Ruger isn't going to make the SR series walk the plank a few years down the road in favor of a newer, more trendy line?

So this is what I'm thinking. I don't really have the luxury anymore of buying guns as often as I like. If I want another, then one has to go. I'm not hating on Ruger or saying the SR series are bad guns or anything, just thinking out loud here.

[robertbank]

For all the reasons noted move the Ruger. If you like Glocks then go for it. Getting another Glock though is gilding the Lilly for not much more benefit if funds are tight. I would pick one and stick with it. Not much a G 17 won't do or for a shorter barrel in a FS gun a M&P FS in 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[snuffy]

Snuffy in your post 349 you are correct in your first paragraph without question.

Your second paragraph is not true. What you can be sure of when buying factory 9MM ammunition is it is within SAMMI specifications for the cartridge or more properly put the cartridges do not exceed SAMMI specs. The exception would be +P+ ammunition for which there are no SAMMI specs for. There is for +P ammunition. That said there is no guarantee the ammunition is at the maximum power for SAMMI ; just that it is within specifications. The two are not the same thing.

Take Care

Bob

Wow, this thread is really taking a nosedive in the civility department. I will admit the biggest reason I don't like max loads in most rounds is because my nervous system just can't deal with much in the way of recoil, muzzle jump, noise. I have fought a major case of the flinch all my life and I'm not going to risk throwing away the hard earned progress I have made. Seriously, one cylinder full of .44 Magnum will set me back big time. So I just say no thanks to anything more difficult than .38 Special +P or 9mm.

Bob, that's a good point , We/I sometimes forget about sammi and how they control ammo to keep it safe. Whether sammi levels are the same as maximum safe load levels or not is the question. What I'M saying is sammi loads re NOT reduced--whimpy loads. They HAVE to be pretty close to max loads to function all guns made for that caliber.

Ferguson, what post was un-civil? This thread was stated in 2008 to dispel the myth that you CANNOT LOAD CAST LEAD BOOLITS IN THE FACTORY OEM GLOCK barrels. That's bound to start an argument. Many have said they routinely do just that, it works,,--SAFELY. As far as the current discussion about just what is a max load, that one will never be settled.

It would be nice to have a world where there was never a disagreement, not here, not now. I suspect heaven is just such a place.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm not going to do it any time soon unless somebody offers me a healthy price for the SR9c. And I agree that I wouldn't be gaining a huge amount in terms of basic pistol function. Both are reliable, concealable, and capable of ruining a bad guy's day. Over the long haul I think the G26 would make more sense.

[FergusonTO35]

It was just a general observation, directed at no one in particular.

[robertbank]

Bob, that's a good point , We/I sometimes forget about sammi and how they control ammo to keep it safe. Whether sammi levels are the same as maximum safe load levels or not is the question. What I'M saying is sammi loads re NOT reduced--whimpy loads. They HAVE to be pretty close to max loads to function all guns made for that caliber.

Ferguson, what post was un-civil? This thread was stated in 2008 to dispel the myth that you CANNOT LOAD CAST LEAD BOOLITS IN THE FACTORY OEM GLOCK barrels. That's bound to start an argument. Many have said they routinely do just that, it works,,--SAFELY. As far as the current discussion about just what is a max load, that one will never be settled.

It would be nice to have a world where there was never a disagreement, not here, not now. I suspect heaven is just such a place.

Snuffy I own six different makes of 9MM pistols ie SA. DA/SA and Safe Action and all function with loads well below most manual specs for reloading. I do agree the manufacturers must meet a minimum threshold but it really is significantly below any maximum loading's recommended in any reloading manual I have come across. Some pistols have heavier slides than others which cam cause problems. The Glock 17 for all it's vaunted reliability is very easy to limp wrist and induce jams. There are several youtube videos out there that demonstrate the ease in which Glocks can be made to choke. The Glock 34 & 35 have cutouts in the slide to allow the pistol to function with the same recoil springs as the Glock 17. One thing Smith & Wesson did with their M&P was to sculpture the sides of the slide to reduce its overall weight which adds to reliability.

Take care

Bob