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Thread: The Wonder Nine Years

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    I have an old memory of a study done by NYPD a couple of decades back. They looked over the records of every police shooting since Teddy Roosevelt was Commissioner. The perps were shot with everything from a 22 Short to a 458 Win. Mag.

    The bottom line of the study was where you hit them was far more important than what you hit them with. If the "caliber wars" are not over, it is time they should be. Stay calm and shoot straight!
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy fivefang's Avatar
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    all remarks were interesting ,strange that nothing was mentioned about our standard 9x19 ammo in the early days were unable to "cycle" a Luger in a reliable manner, unless a casing was marked Magnum, no other pistol Ctg. saw 35-k pressure, we have since learned a lot regarding the 9m.m.Luger Ctg., Fivefang

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Another anecdote. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/06...ed-gunman.html

    If I have an issue I can't handle myself, that is the officer I want to show up.

    I have never owned a high capacity 9mm other than my Berretta. From the reputation they have, Glocks are probably the easiest to shoot of the bunch. That doesn't mean I am going to switch from the 1911 or the 38 special. I like the ones I am used to.
    Last edited by tazman; 07-09-2017 at 04:20 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    I would submit that the Glock is the Darwinian champion of the Wondernine period. I regard it as the ONLY semi auto that can make an argument for having improved on the 1911 concept in terms of simplicity and serviceability. Everything else (before the Glock or since) with the possible exception of the HK P7 proceeded from the question of "but what if we give it to an idiot?", and the result was lots of extra contraptions and parts that made the gun harder to shoot well or service in the futile search for a gun a moron can't shoot himself with (morons are notoriously industrious in their ability to out-stupid smart engineers)

    The Sig lockup (and other transitional designs it built on) is certainly significant. In eliminating the 1911's barrel bushing, link, and extra locking points, one gets to the same initial point of having a functional pistol while making the gun cheaper. Whether or not it made the gun better is an argument for the accountants. When you loosen up a 1911, you can install new bushings and links. When you loosen up a Wondernine, you usually buy new guns.

    Bringing up that time machine again, I'd really like to go back and see just how "worn out" those 1911's were. I'd wager that twenty bucks of parts would have gotten them to where they'd be chugging along quite happily to this day, and the "need" for M9's was purely political. Hopefully the CMP starts selling them soon and we can find out.
    First and foremost, I couldn't agree more that "morons are notoriously industrious in their ability to out-stupid smart engineers".
    Well said !

    As for the question concerning how worn out were the military's 1911's ? We may never have an accurate accounting. It's safe to say that we were either going to buy more 1911's and spare parts, therefore extending that platform into the foreseeable future OR take that opportunity to adopt a new pistol chambered in 9mm and align ourselves with the rest of NATO. Obviously we all know what did happen and the debate concerning whether or not that was the right decision has yet to cool down.

    I agree with Char-Gar, caliber wars are really not that important.

  5. #45
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    The WONDER NINES were brought on by the magazine gun shills of the industry. Period. Lots got sucked in on it. I had 2 S&W 9's and went back to my M37 S&W as a plainclothes.

    A new Chief came in and we got issued the NEW gun shill caliber and gun the S&W 4073 in 40 Smith. 3 times the weight of my 37 5 shot with a small 6 round strip. Now we carried the 11 shot and 2 more magazines. WHY? He as a gun nut with all the magazines glorifying the 40.

    The PD in our city would have liked the 40's we had. They had to keep the Sigs they had in 9mm.
    I would have preferred to keep my 37 it shot great and I felt well protected with it. I now have 2 CC guns a S&W 642 and a Glock 26.

    Had I been issued the Glock 26 back then I would have been happy.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The bottom line of the study was where you hit them was far more important than what you hit them with. If the "caliber wars" are not over, it is time they should be. Stay calm and shoot straight!
    Complete agreement, Charles. But if you are going to arm your people with a given platform & caliber, go to the trouble of selecting the best possible ammunition to carry in that choice. The 9mm Sub-Sonic is about a polar opposite of "best possible".
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  7. #47
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    I don't want to start a measuring contest about how worn out the Army's 1911s were. I handled and repaired hundreds of them during that time frame in several different geographical locations, as that was my job. Some were in remarkably good shape; some were so worn that it was difficult to make them function correctly. I'm talking worn slides and frames, so no, $20 worth of repair parts wouldn't have set them right.
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  8. #48
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    I don't wish to get into the "should we have replaced the 1911" discussion.

    There is a strong argument that the U.S. needed to join the rest of NATO and select a 9mm pistol. Perhaps the claim that large numbers of 1911 pistols were worn out was presented as an excuse to make that switch. Perhaps a large number of 1911's were in fact worn out and the Army wanted a new pistol. It doesn't matter now.
    There was a lot of resistance to that change but its done now. We did replace it, that's history.

    I think the U.S. military's adoption of the Beretta M9 was a factor in the Wonder Nine era but not the sole factor.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The fact that the military adopted the Beretta was a big factor in my choice of the 92fs for myself. If the military uses it, you know there are going to be parts around for a long time even if the pistol itself isn't all that great. The military has stuck with the M9 for over 30 years and that says something.
    In the current market there are many good to great choices for a high capacity 9mm. Also the 9mm adapts itself to very small concealed carry better than many other cartridges.
    I am not going to say it is the best for concealed carry. Everyone has their own ideas about that. It is a good option though.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Joe Foster developed the Model 39 for the Air Force, but ....

    I worked across the bench from Joe Foster for two days in 1978, when S&W brought him back out of retirement to correct the feeding and extraction issues that had developed with the Model 59's.
    Fred
    Great post Fred. That's some firsthand experience.
    Any chance though that you could have misremembered the name and actually are thinking of Joe Norman, the S&W engineer, generally credited with Models 39, 59, & 52 design?

    Jason

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy Rainier's Avatar
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    nicholst55
    I don't want to start a measuring contest about how worn out the Army's 1911s were.
    Oh my! That was not my intent - I apologize if thats how my post "sounded". I was just pointing out that in the early 1980s, in our unit at least, the 1911's were still up and going. Thats where my experience begins and ends - I can't address other Army units or the other branches of the military during that time.
    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies" Ron Paul

  12. #52
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    The Wonder Nine Years

    In the early 80's I was a subscriber to Guns & Ammo and Shooting Times magazines. I remember a stretch in which it seemed like all they want to write about was all the new wonder nines coming into the market. I got so tired of those boring articles that I canceled both subscriptions. At that time I had no interest in them, and that remains the same today.


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  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    Complete agreement, Charles. But if you are going to arm your people with a given platform & caliber, go to the trouble of selecting the best possible ammunition to carry in that choice. The 9mm Sub-Sonic is about a polar opposite of "best possible".
    Amen and amen! I have a few 9mms and trust them, but with very good ammo. I also like the 45 ACP and 38 Special, but always use the best ammo regardless of the caliber. I like stacking the odds in my favor.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholst55 View Post
    I don't want to start a measuring contest about how worn out the Army's 1911s were. I handled and repaired hundreds of them during that time frame in several different geographical locations, as that was my job. Some were in remarkably good shape; some were so worn that it was difficult to make them function correctly. I'm talking worn slides and frames, so no, $20 worth of repair parts wouldn't have set them right.
    I am wondering how the original GI slides vs. the post WWII replacement "hard slides" compared. Any experience there.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #55
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    After reading through this expanding thread again I had a few more comments, based on the comments of others. No one is exactly wrong here, but there do seem to me some shades of opinion including my own. Firstly, there are and have been many "spray and pray" incidents. I don't have the time or inclination to look them all up and list them for you, but the one that immediately comes to mind is where some black guys came under fire by several LEOs (was it in NY?), one some sort of notorious celebrity, and there was something like 50+ shots fired by at least 3 different officers with I believe 3 hits. Very publicized incident at the time, and I think a couple of bystanders got hit. Not that uncommon an incident. You can say that it all goes to quantity and quality of training, but like one fellow pointed out the vast majority of LEOs never fire their gun at a person in an actual survival situation during their entire careers. Even the best trained can be overcome by stress and adrenalin and the survival instinct takes over, shots become rapid and wild. Say it isn't so, and you don't read or watch the news. You don't, and won't know until it actually happens to you. Remember, almost every LEO has gone through some sort of an academy and received training and practice with firearms, listened to all of the lectures on when you can and can't shoot and the history of past incidents. After leaving the academy their continuing training may vary from excellent to none at all. Maybe an officer under duress might continue to be an excellent shot, and maybe not. Depends on the individual, and to say that having a high capacity magazine is a preferable thing may or may not be true, depending on the man holding it.

    As for the early 9mm ammo, I think that it is agreed and a mater of verifiable history that it proved ineffective. Certainly exchanging a hollow point bullet for a FMJ is a significant improvement, but as I mentioned earlier even the design of the hollow point has improved immensely from those early days. Hydra-Shok, Black Talon, Starfire, and other extreme terminal performance designs have completely changed the game. While basically true that where you are hit is more important that what you are hit with, and that's only basically, as a .25 ACP in non-fatal area will be less effective than one by a .45 ACP where a hit to the upper arm might shatter the bone vs. a small oozing hole, these modern HPs tend to roam around after entering the body. Some even break into segments and veer off course. It is no longer your granddaddy's 9mm.

    I have nothing at all against high capacity mags in the hands of the well trained. As for the well performing, you never know until it hits the fan.
    A life saver? Certainly can be. A detriment? Certainly can be. Satisfactory solution? There is none that readily comes to mind.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master sawinredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterAZ View Post
    In the early 80's I was a subscriber to Guns & Ammo and Shooting Times magazines. I remember a stretch in which it seemed like all they want to write about was all the new wonder nines coming into the market. I got so tired of those boring articles that I canceled both subscriptions. At that time I had no interest in them, and that remains the same today.


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    On the flip side, it wasn't long after that every cover, of every gun magazine had a picture of the latest and greatest 1911! I quit buying them at that time.
    As for the "spray and pray" this is some good reading, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

  17. #57
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    The Wondernine period was a central portion of my firearms education and growing up. To this day I still own and shoot one of the best "Wondernine's" that didn't make it thru the Army's 1911-replacement "buy NATO" trials, the Star M30-series. I've had several 30PK's, and still use a 31M. This pistol is as rock solid as any CZ or HiPower, and only has a single screw in it's entire construction, grips included. Truly a great design, and why it didn't pass onward during the trials is a mystery to me (of course the original 30 had issues (so I've heard) and then Star folded in the great financial collapse of the 90's). During the hay-day, Star made wonderful firearms.
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  18. #58
    Boolit Master sawinredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion8 View Post
    The Wondernine period was a central portion of my firearms education and growing up. To this day I still own and shoot one of the best "Wondernine's" that didn't make it thru the Army's 1911-replacement "buy NATO" trials, the Star M30-series. I've had several 30PK's, and still use a 31M. This pistol is as rock solid as any CZ or HiPower, and only has a single screw in it's entire construction, grips included. Truly a great design, and why it didn't pass onward during the trials is a mystery to me (of course the original 30 had issues (so I've heard) and then Star folded in the great financial collapse of the 90's). During the hay-day, Star made wonderful firearms.
    Boy you aren't kidding! A buddy had an original Firestar in 9mm, it was as heavy as a tank, but nearly as indescructable and shot great!

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The only "9mm" I own is a cylinder to fit my 4-5/8" Ruger New Model Blackhawk Convertible.

    The .357 cylinder stays in the gun, but I wanted "something" which could digest windfall 9mm ammo in case a pallet load fell off the tailgate of the alien spaceship! I fooled with 9mms in the 1980s and satisfied my curiosity and finally cured myself of the 9mm autopistol affliction...

    I do find it interesting that after developing the .40 S&W that the FBI and several other agencies have returned to the 9mm.

    A good friend of mine whom I have known for many years, who is a firearms instructor at FLETC tells me that the current generation of 9mm service loads is effective, and while the .40 is a good round, buying both duty and practice ammo in the quantities that the Feds do, you get more "bang for the buck" with 9mm, reduced weight and cube of ammo, more rounds on a pallet, cost per million rounds MUCH less on a contract basis.

    He predicts that while the true believers who preach that a handgun must be of a caliber which starts with a "4", the agencies who are slaves to their budgets and bean counters will trade in their .40s in droves, or replace them with nines when they start wearing out. He predicts there will be bargains in "police turn in" .40 S&W handguns soon, and from my observations, that is already beginning to happen.

    But do I need a .40 S&W? Only as a spare cylinder to fit a Ruger convertible single-action, with another cylinder in .38-40 maybe...

    Yeah, to use windfall ammo in case a pallet falls off the alien spaceship...
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  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Yeah, to use windfall ammo in case a pallet falls off the alien spaceship...

    That's as good a reason as any to buy a gun. I didn't try the 9mm guns in the early years. I actually waited until about 5 years ago and I think it is a good thing I did.
    I got into it at the time when all the best things were pretty much stabilized and there were lots of excellent weapons out there. I really like the 9mm pistols I have now and I trust the new ammunition to do what needs to be done.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
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