RotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyStainLess Steel MediaInline Fabrication
Titan ReloadingWisconsin TriggerGraf & SonsLee Precision

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 114

Thread: The Wonder Nine Years

  1. #81
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    130
    I was always a Single Action or Double Action revolver guy. Mostly D/A Smith & Wesson. This was in the 80's and 90's. Now due to the age of my hands it hurts to grip the revolvers. Got into Sigs and now own a P-226, P228 Nine's , A West German 220 and a 220 Scorpion. Down to only one revolver a S&W 686-3. Hardly shoot the 357 any more but will never get rid of my last revolver.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    3,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Art in Colorado View Post
    I was always a Single Action or Double Action revolver guy. Mostly D/A Smith & Wesson. This was in the 80's and 90's. Now due to the age of my hands it hurts to grip the revolvers. Got into Sigs and now own a P-226, P228 Nine's , A West German 220 and a 220 Scorpion. Down to only one revolver a S&W 686-3. Hardly shoot the 357 any more but will never get rid of my last revolver.
    I've owned and shot them all but in the end I think I'm a DA revolver guy.

    BTW, I had a P228 and considered it to be one of the best compact 9mm pistols out there. I sold it during my divorce and later replaced it with a P225 (P6) which is basically the same gun with a single stack mag. The Glock 19 and SIG P228 are in the same class and are excellent balances between size, weight, capacity and power. Not a bad combination.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    10,696
    P&P et al--

    I tend to have a "default setting" in my carry pistols.......somewhere between the P-228/Glock 19/23 and the Colt Commander/Browning HP/CZ-75 bracket. Any smaller, they don't fit my hand very well. Any larger (1911A1/Beretta 92/96) they start being a PITA to conceal.

    I love wheelguns, too. For carry, a 3"-4" barrel is about ideal. I can make J-frame S&W/D-frame Colt/SP-101 work with larger grips, but the K-frame S&W or I-frame & J-frame Colt are better for me. GP-100 or N-frame S&W are nice for open carry, but just a mite too much for CCW. I don't mean this as a recommendation for others, just as a review of what has and hasn't worked out over 40+ years of CCW and open carry in a variety of venues.

    Roller or slider--carry as powerful a cartridge as you can manage with accuracy. For some reason, revolver skills are a lot less "perishable" than are autopistol manipulation skill sets. Take that critter out and run it--that IS why we refill our empties, RIGHT?
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  4. #84
    Boolit Master Rainier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Duvall, WA
    Posts
    197
    9.3X62AL
    For some reason, revolver skills are a lot less "perishable" than are autopistol manipulation skill sets.
    Not trying to be a jerk here - I'm just not sure I agree with that statement. I've drawn, fired and reloaded so many rounds out of a 1911 that to this day I still take the "safety" off my Glock. Yes, its true, there is no thumb safety on my Glock, yet when I draw, my thumb slides up to snap it down and my wife gets a chuckle out of the whole deal.
    What I'm least comfortable with is double action revolver trigger - doing my best to sort it out but not a skill I'd admit to owning... yet. And... reloading a revolver? I feel inadequate and pond water slow, even practicing with speed loaders/strips etc... I recall being on the firing line next to an "old" sergeant who was shooting the archaic model 19 (sarcasm alert) - using a dump pouch he could reload and be back on target almost as fast as I could mag change.
    So the question might be; Are the less "perishable" skills the ones you learn in your youth rather then skills related to the bullet/boolit launcher of your choice?
    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies" Ron Paul

  5. #85
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    3,639
    Rainier - I don't think you're being a jerk at all. Those are valid observations.

    Muscle memory, for the lack of a better term, is a powerful thing. As for skills being perishable and at what point in your life you learn those skills; I think it has more to do with when you try to unlearn them.
    Some things just get burnt into your brain. You can overwrite that programming but you cannot erase it!

    For you, it appears the primary programming was for a single action trigger and a thumb safety. Nothing wrong with that.

    For all of my adult life and then some, I've operated a huge variety of vehicles. Occasionally I will reach for a column shifter when it's on the floor or vice versa but generally I can instantly adapt seamlessly from one type to another without issue. There was one exception; at one point I owned a 64 Dodge sedan with a manual 3 speed and a 68 Plymouth with an automatic and power brakes. In the 60's, American cars with automatics and power brakes would always have a giant brake pedal. When I came to a stop in that 68 my left foot would instinctively look for the clutch pedal that wasn't there. My left foot would catch the corner of that giant brake pedal and shove it to the floor. That usually resulted in my head bouncing off the windshield and a near rear end collision from the car behind me. It was embarrassing to say the least. Muscle memory at work !

  6. #86
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    10,696
    Rainier--

    No argument with your assertions. I was a range trainer for 23 years at a department that authorizes a wide range of rollers & sliders for its troops. Maybe a better way of expressing what I meant was that 'The mechanics involved in firing--reloading--and returning rollers to action are less complex (but slower) and better-retained than are the refill/return to action sequences of the autopistol, which are faster by far but require periodic refreshment to retain that time advantage'. That factoid has been borne out to my own satisfaction and is agreed upon by most of the trainers I have worked with. When the kids don't practice the moves monthly, their dexterity and fluidity disappears. It is obvious at quals day who does and who does not shoot and practice between quals sessions.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  7. #87
    Boolit Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    HB, CA, FOR NOW
    Posts
    3,808
    To my way of thinking, the major benefit to come out of the Wonder Nine years was magazines that work. Contrary to the good Colonel, it was not just fuddy-duddy, antiquated thinking that kept the revolver in front line service for so long. It was a bonafide fact that Semi-autos could and did jam at a significantly higher rate than revolvers would malfunction. Much of this was due to poor magazines, but when the wonder nines came along, Magazines got better. I don't know if it was the economic lure of customer demand, or if better manufacturing processes became cheaper and available, but these days, good mags can be taken for granted.

    That was not always the case. My first Combat Commander came with two mags, one worked and one didn't. A gun Smith of my acquaintance reformed the feed lips and number two got better. But those were factory Colt Magazines--after market were worse.
    Some of us can remember going to the bins of magazines at a gun show and buying a half dozen in the hopes of getting two or three that worked. But starting about the time that the S&W 59 hit town, things began to get better. By the late 80's magazine quality was an order of magnitude better. Mag related malfunctions had become rare.

    Since then, things have only continued to be good, Yeah there are a couple of manufacturers out there who still make substandard stuff--Pro Mag, any one?-- but in the main, when you get a magazine today, it will function.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  8. #88
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    11,267
    Ranier....No, you are not being a jerk at all. I suspect that age has something to do with the difference.

    Once upon a time in America, With very few exceptions almost nobody carried an autopistol for police and defense work. Auto pistols were rumored to be jam prone and the ammo was all FNJ round nose that was not famous for "stopping power". Yes, I realize allot of this way myth, but it was the common thinking.

    Every local, state and federal police holster held a revolver in 38 Special or some highway cops had 357 Magnums. I was well into my middle years before this began to change.

    I don't know how old or young you have to be to have missed the revolver age, but some of us here are still there. I for one trust revolvers more, can shoot them better and can reload them faster than any autopistol around. I reluctantly have entered the autopistol age to some degree, but it stops with the 1911 pistol.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master Rainier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Duvall, WA
    Posts
    197
    P&P and 9.3 - Thank you! I find I don't always contribute - mostly out of fear that someone may get their knickers twisted about me sharing what I have experienced requiring lots of keyboard time I don't really want to spend. I find it can be difficult to get tone and inflection into written words.

    P&P - I almost blew coffee all over my keyboard reliving a similar memory going from a standard to an automatic - I think the salesman at the dealership thought I was nuts

    9.3 - My hat is off to you! I would have been jailed for assault or worse if I spent 23 months let alone 23 years as a range trainer. I've worked with people 1 on 1 in a non-official setting but they came to me for help - pretty safe bet I wouldn't have the patience required to do the job you did. AND... no doubt in my mind that a bit of ongoing practice/training to maintain your skills is a requirement.
    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies" Ron Paul

  10. #90
    Boolit Master Rainier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Duvall, WA
    Posts
    197
    Char-Gar
    Ranier....No, you are not being a jerk at all.
    Thank you too! You may very well be correct about timing/age. I grew up hunting with a single shot .22 rifle and a 12ga shotgun (I'm lucky enough to still have both!) with almost no exposure to handguns. When I joined the Army I was taught how to shoot a 1911 and fell in love with pistol shooting. I could generally hit the broadside of a barn (if I stood in it) with a double action revolver but the single action semi-auto was where it was at for me for years. And yes, there was a small group of us that thought (maybe still do) the sun rose and set on John Browning's beloved 1911 while some of the older shooters laughed at us for not using the 38/357. What amused me was the big conflict with the revolver guys between the Colt's and the S&W's - all the while, at the time, I'm thinking I'd had it all sorted out. Its fun to look back with 20/20 vision and realize what little I really knew.
    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies" Ron Paul

  11. #91
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    10,696
    My shooting experiences began with hunting. I was licensed at age 10, and 90% of the work was done with shotguns, and the balance was taken up by rifles--both rimfire and centerfire. I noticed that the more expensive premium-grade shotshells worked a whole lot better than the cheep "dove & quail" loads that showed up like clockwork every August in sport shops just prior to the Sep. 1 dove opener. Where I grew up, that was and still is a popular event. The harder/better shot--the better hulls--the better wad columns--and the increased velocity and pattern density of 1-1/4 oz shotloads going 1300+ FPS instantly upped my percentages afield and on the trap & skeet fields. I began reloading at age 15, and it was shotshells. 30-06 for my Dad's Model 70 came about a year later with a Lee Loader.

    Handguns weren't even on the radar until I was about 20. Another Lee Loader for 38 Special helped keep my first revolver fed (S&W Model 28 x 6"), albeit slowly. Within a year, I was on board with the Sheriff's Department, and on my way to Indio. The Model 28 was lost to a Divorce Fire Sale, and replaced with a Colt Trooper Mk III x 4". I have no idea how many rounds went through that beast, at least 25K--and half of those were full-tilt Magnums. I was a reloading maniac by this time (40 years ago), and little has changed.

    I am equally comfortable with round guns or square guns. I retired and no longer hunt armed predators, but I still enjoy shooting and crafting ammo. Once the autopistols came on stream at my shop in 1987, I no longer carried a roller as a primary arm, and they have evolved into sportguns & hunters for me. My focus is on projecting power when i choose a carry caliber, and 10mm has returned as my primary sideiron (well, holsterplastic) since its use was re-approved about a year ago. Long story. When afield in the back-country, either the Glock 20 or the S&W Mountain Gun in 44 Magnum gets the call these days.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    11,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainier View Post
    Thank you too! You may very well be correct about timing/age. I grew up hunting with a single shot .22 rifle and a 12ga shotgun (I'm lucky enough to still have both!) with almost no exposure to handguns. When I joined the Army I was taught how to shoot a 1911 and fell in love with pistol shooting. I could generally hit the broadside of a barn (if I stood in it) with a double action revolver but the single action semi-auto was where it was at for me for years. And yes, there was a small group of us that thought (maybe still do) the sun rose and set on John Browning's beloved 1911 while some of the older shooters laughed at us for not using the 38/357. What amused me was the big conflict with the revolver guys between the Colt's and the S&W's - all the while, at the time, I'm thinking I'd had it all sorted out. Its fun to look back with 20/20 vision and realize what little I really knew.
    Most of the Colt vs. Smith & Wesson conflict came or at least started with the Bulleye Match pistol shooters. One leg of the match was "centerfire" and most competitors used a 38 Special target revolver and argued back for forth about which was better. There were enough differences between the two to fuel the fire. The cylinders rotated in opposite directions as did the rifling twist. Of course there were other differences, most notably the style of rifling. The feel of the action and trigger were also notably different.

    The salient fact was that some folks posted better scores with one rather than the other. I always did my best with a Colt Officers Model Match. That said, for anything other than paper punching I preferred the Smith and Wesson and still do. There was a "Service Pistol" leg, which of course was the Colt 45 Auto. I shot that pistol long enough to get quite good with it and one has never been far from my hand in the last 50 years. Of course there is always the companion S&W revolver, which I carry when I leave the house.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Some of the 115-125 gr 9mm jacketed hollowpoints, particularly the Winchester +P+ controlled expansion loads and the Federal 9BPLE loads performed extremely well. It took a little time to get details worked out concerning jacket thickness, shape & size of the hollow point cavity and velocity. After that development and learning curve, those rounds worked very well. Unfortunately, a lot of users (and non-user haters) just lumped all 9mm loads together and said - this doesn't work. There was no interest in getting the facts right and EVERY perceived failure of a 9mm to stop a threat was attributed to ALL 9mm loads.

    Those that say the 45 ACP and .357 mag already worked and implied there was no need to develop the 9mm are correct but that wasn't a useful argument. They seemed to view the 9mm as a threat to the existing cartridges as opposed to the fact that the 9mm could be (and is) an addition to those cartridges. There are a lot tools in the toolbox.

    The FBI didn't help the situation when they created test criteria that almost guaranteed the 9mm wouldn't pass.

    Cartridge and caliber wars are pointless. I'm all about stacking the deck in my favor but honestly; there are other factors just as important, maybe more so, that the cartridge.
    It also didn't help that the modern liability driven phase of law enforcement started at about the same time and one of the reason they went to hollow points was so the bullet were less likely to "over penetrate" and injure bystanders. So they ended up with shallow penetrating, rapidly expanding hollow points like the 115gr. Winchester Silvertip that did exactly what it was designed to do when it did work.

    Unfortunately one of them functioned perfectly and stopped one inch short of the suspects heart and allowed two FBI agents to get killed and three more to be severely wounded in Miami. Never mind the fact that if the bullet had been a 9mm ball round or even a JHP developed just a few years later the suspect would have most likely been DRT a lot earlier in the fight and most likely before any of the FBI agents were killed or injured.

    My philosophy is nothing handheld and not large enough caliber to cause significant dismemberment is a reliable stopper.

  14. #94
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Oregon Coast
    Posts
    2,654
    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    To my way of thinking, the major benefit to come out of the Wonder Nine years was magazines that work. Contrary to the good Colonel, it was not just fuddy-duddy, antiquated thinking that kept the revolver in front line service for so long. It was a bonafide fact that Semi-autos could and did jam at a significantly higher rate than revolvers would malfunction. Much of this was due to poor magazines, but when the wonder nines came along, Magazines got better. I don't know if it was the economic lure of customer demand, or if better manufacturing processes became cheaper and available, but these days, good mags can be taken for granted.

    That was not always the case. My first Combat Commander came with two mags, one worked and one didn't. A gun Smith of my acquaintance reformed the feed lips and number two got better. But those were factory Colt Magazines--after market were worse.
    Some of us can remember going to the bins of magazines at a gun show and buying a half dozen in the hopes of getting two or three that worked. But starting about the time that the S&W 59 hit town, things began to get better. By the late 80's magazine quality was an order of magnitude better. Mag related malfunctions had become rare.

    Since then, things have only continued to be good, Yeah there are a couple of manufacturers out there who still make substandard stuff--Pro Mag, any one?-- but in the main, when you get a magazine today, it will function.
    One of the main changes in the Model 59 upgrades was the addition of followers with 4 legs to prevent the follower from tipping inside the magazine body. The original design had the magazine spring attaching to a protrusion on the underside of the follower. This was a big improvement over the old design, and most double stack magazine followers today are of the same basic 4-legged design.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    3,639
    Drifting a bit to the tragic Miami shootout of 1986; that event came late in the development of the Wonder Nines but certainly had an influence.

    The FBI blamed the ammunition on the failure to stop the attack early in the event. They then went in search of better ammunition. Of course that better ammunition couldn't be something that existed because then the question would be, "If it already exists, why weren't you using it?"
    So there were a bunch of tests with criteria that just about guaranteed the winner wouldn't be a common preexisting cartridge. What we ended up with was the 10mm lite, which we all know was the progenitor of the 40 S&W.

    There has been endless debate concerning that one 9mm round, fired early in the event, that failed to stop Platt (one of the two criminals in the shootout). That round went through Platt's upper arm and entered his chest, stopping just short of his heart. Obviously a little more penetration would have been desirable but playing "would have, should have, could have" is a pointless exercise.

    I'm not convinced that round "failed" in the true sense of the word. Handguns in general are poor tools to stop human attackers but handguns are often the only tool available.

    Anyway, we had this extensive battery of tests involving gelatin and various barriers such as automotive glass, 20ga steel sheet metal, clothing, wallboard, etc. I will say that the FBI did a good job of making the tests repeatable and scientifically defensible. I think their methodology was sound but their results were preordained. The winning handgun cartridge wasn't going to be a common existing cartridge.

    The NRA covered this very well and the article can be found here: https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...bi-ammo-tests/



    We eventually got the 40 S&W out of all of this and now we're going full circle and seeing a resurgence of the 9mm. In the end, handguns in general suck at stopping a human attacker.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Oregon Coast
    Posts
    2,654
    Our department adopted the Winchester Silver Tip ammunition for both 9x19 and .38 Special as issued duty rounds early on, and I was the instigator of that adoption about 1979, before I left the range. Every Silver Tip recovered at autopsy performed as advertised. In one incident, a civilian used a .380 acp loaded with Silver Tips to stop a burglar who attacked him with 3 rounds to the chest. My really good friend was the Chief Deputy Coroner for our county and he said all three of those .380's expanded perfectly when they were removed at the autopsy.

    In our officer involved shootings, the Silver Tip was reliable and worked. When we were forced to be issued Glock 22's, in lieu of our previous 9x19 and .38 Special firearms (plus privately owned sidearms like my beloved Model 57), we were issued Winchester Black Talon ammunition for the .40's. It's also an excellent round, as is it's replacement Ranger ammunition (Black Talon without the black coating). All officer involved shootings with that round ended up with the perpetrator on the Coroner's autopsy table.

    In the Florida FBI incident, that first Silver Tip round penetrated an upper arm before entering the chest of the suspect, so it's hard to say it didn't perform properly. The target in real world shootings is going through all kinds of gyrations, so predicting what the bullet will hit is deemed rather difficult, at best....

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    10,696
    Lots of good summations & info above in this thread, from folks whose experiences I believe in and rely upon.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Wichita KS
    Posts
    381
    To add with the FBI testing, they had minimal penetration wants AFTER going through a barrier. Be it a car door, a windshield, a standard home sheet rock wall, etc., they wanted 16" penetration after penetrating said barriers, but not over 24" if memory serves? (Please correct if I'm wrong, it's been a while!)
    So there was a barrier then a min/max limit on all rounds. I've never seen the testing done with the 40 S&W.
    I also do not recall them ever stating they wanted a .40 cal round, or deemed that necessary for the requirements. As I recall it (again, been a while) they tested every commercial load available at that time, .32acp to 44mag, to find the round that would penetrate the barrier and meet the min/max in gel. The 10mm met their wants, then the .40 was created to fill a need for untrained agents.

  19. #99
    Boolit Master



    Kevin Rohrer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Medina, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,110
    I did not read anything beyond the title and the OP's first paragraph. I hope everyone is aware that the term "Wonder" is meant facetiously.
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA-Life, Varmint Hunter's Assn, ARTCA, American Legion, & the West Branch Gun Club.

    Caveat Emptor: Do not trust Cavery Grips from Clayton, NC. He will rip you off.

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    3,639
    I don't know how other people interpret the phrase but I wasn't using it facetiously. The term "Wonder-Nine" was coined in the 1980's (not sure when or by whom) to describe the pistols chambered in 9mm with large capacity magazines and some type of DA action that flooded the market. Now, I'm sure some folks that have a low opinion of the 9mm cartridge see the word "Wonder" as a facetious, tongue in cheek, jab at the 9mm Luger.

    The 9mm has always been derided by some, particularly by those in the 45ACP camp. The situation really heated up when the U.S. military decided that the replacement for the 1911 was going to be some pistol chambered in 9mm and that pistol wouldn't be a SA 1911 platform.
    No doubt some people use the term "Wonder Nine" with a sarcastic tone but I wasn't defending or denigrating the "Wonder Nines".
    I just wanted to open a discussion.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check